[conservonator]

Thanks for your participation.

[conservonator]

bump for any takers

[The_Reader_David]

Excuse me, but the Nicean Creed, properly called the Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed since the paragraphs beginning with that concering the Holy Spirit were added to the Creed of Nicea by the Second Ecumenical Council which convened at Constantinople in 381, reads ". . .and in the Holy Spirit, the give of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. . ."

What you have posted in the version of the creed promulgated by the local council of Toledo (whose date escapes me) which inserted 'and the Son' in contradiction to the plain words of Our Lord, which interpolated creed spread among the Franks despite opposition from their patriarch, the Pope of Rome, and whose adoption by the Popes of Rome resulted in their removal from the Diptychs of the Great Church of Constantinople in 1009 or 1014 (it is unclear whether the adoption of the heretical creed by Rome became known as a result of the no-longer extant election encyclical of Pope Sergius IV, or the coronation rite of the German Emperor Henry II). This unauthorized addition (in violation of the solemn decree of the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus) is theologically unsound as St. Photius the Great ably showed in his Mystagogia. Even allowing, as Tomus of 1285 issued by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Gregory of Cyprus, does, the fact of an eternal manifestation of the Spirit through the Son, the procession of the Spirit is from the Father alone.

I can answer for all the Orthodox on the board: we all believe the original Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed (if we didn't we wouldn't be Orthodox).

[tiki]

All of both.

[White Mountain]

From the Apostles' Creed: who was conceived by the Holy Ghost

That is not close enough to the Scriptures.

KJV Matthew 1:20 ... for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In English we use "conceived by" to indicate paternity, but the Holy Ghost (while evidently having some role in the conception of Christ in Mary's womb) is not the father of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that God the Father is His Father, and our Father.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

[White Mountain]

Or in other words, "... Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost ..." needs to be reworded, as it indicates a dual paternity. "Conceived of the Holy Ghost" would be closer to Scripture.

[White Mountain]

From the Nicene Creed: eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Best to stick with the Scriptures. Let them tell you what "begotten" means, and don't go any further than the Scriptures go.

"Of one Being (homoousios) with the Father" is not Scriptural, as many protested at the time the creed was adopted by the council.

When Jesus said, "I and my Father are One" (John 10:30), Jesus was here in mortality and God the Father was in heaven. In John 17:20-21, Jesus explains how They are One. He prays that all believers may be one as They are, so "one" does not mean the number one, but perfect unity in all respects -- heart, mind, purpose, thought, action, etc.

In other places Jesus prays to God the Father, says "the Father is greater than I", and "neither came I of myself, but he sent me", all inconsistent with the notion of one Being or substance.

>> We believe in the Holy Spirit ... who proceeds from the Father (and the Son).

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

I (a Latter-Day Saint) will have to agree with the Eastern Orthodox that "proceedeth from the Father" comes right out of the above verse, with no "and the Son". "Proceedeth from", in my opinion, is another way of saying "is sent by" or "was sent by", and in the above we see that Jesus sends the Spirit (from the Father), so the Roman Catholics have a point also.

Best just to stick to the Scriptures, in my opinion, and not worry about creeds.

[tjwmason]

I agree with all precepts and doctrines contained in the two creeds. On the subject of the filioque I have no problem with the Theology (that's essentially a heck of a fuss made by some Orthodox polemicists), but I would argue that as it was written by an Oecumenical Council only an Oecumenical Council can amend it. Anybody who does not agree with all of the doctrines stated in the Creeds is a heretic. I would also add in the Athanasian Creed or Quicunque vult:


Whosoever would be saved: needeth before all things to hold fast the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled: without doubt he will perish eternally.

Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity;
Neither confusing the Persons: nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son: another of the Holy Ghost;
But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost;
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated; the Holy Ghost uncreated;
The Father infinite, the Son infinite: the Holy Ghost infinite;
The Father eternal, the Son eternal: the Holy Ghost eternal;
And yet there are not three eternals: but one eternal;
As also there are not three uncreated, nor three infinites: but one infinite, and one uncreated.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty: the Holy Ghost almighty;
And yet there are not three almighties: but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son God: the Holy Ghost God;
And yet there are not three Gods: but one God.
So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord; the Holy Ghost Lord;
And yet there are not three Lords: but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to confess each Person by himself to be both God and Lord;
So we are forbidden by the Catholic Religion: to speak of three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: nor created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and the Son: not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
There is therefore one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity there is no before or after: no greater or less;
But all three Persons are co-eternal together: and co-equal.
So that in all ways, as is aforesaid: both the Trinity is to be worshipped in Unity, and the Unity in Trinity.
He therefore that would be saved: let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to eternal salvation: that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now the right Faith is that we believe and confess: that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and Man.
He is God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and he is Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God: perfect Man, of reasoning soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead: less than the Father as touching his Manhood.
Who although he be God and Man: yet he is not two, but is one Christ;
One, however, not by conversion of Godhead into flesh: but by taking Manhood into God;
One altogether: not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
For as reasoning soul and flesh is one man: so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation: descended into hell, rose again from the dead;
Ascended into heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father: from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies: and shall give account for their own deeds.
And they that have done evil will go into eternal fire: and they that have done good into life eternal.

This is the Catholic Faith: which except a man do faithfully and stedfastly believe, he cannot be saved.

[nate4one]

I believe I am a Christian but I do not agree with all of either.
God Bless
Nate

[conservonator]

Looks like universal agreement escapes us....

[Rubber_Duckie_27]

I am Lutheran, and fully accept both the Apostles and Nicene creeds. We use one of them in every worship service...I am not too familiar with other Protestant services but it wouldn't surprise me if most Protestants adhere to these creeds as well. In my mind they are the universal Christian tenets.

I do know of some non-denominational Christians who do not agree with the creeds because of the term "holy catholic chuch" - some because they think "catholic" automatically means "Roman Catholic" and others because they reject the idea of a universal Christian church for some reason.

[Sloth]

Aside from uncertainty over whether we'd agree on the definition of a couple of terms, I'd say I generally agree with the doctrinal content of what you posted. However, I absolutely reject any such man-made creeds. My sole creed is the Bible. If man-made creeds are different from what the Bible teaches, then they are in error. If they are the same, then what is the point of having them?

[D-fendr]

I think one area of difference between Catholic and Protestant would be in this part of the Apostles Creed:

I believe in… the communion of saints…