Coming soon: Long-awaited Vatican document on liturgical abuse

Catholic News Service ^ | March 26, 2004 | John Thavis

[topcat54]

Luther wasn't a layman.

All the more reason for Rome to listen.

[Desdemona]

Does this mean that the vessels used by the Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers must be of incorruptible metals also?

They're supposed to be.

[Desdemona]

All the more reason for Rome to listen.

Actually, all the more reason for Luther to be on the ball, which he wasn't.

[Desdemona]

From my experience, the priest uses a gold challis and bowl but pours the wine/blood into various glass goblets for distribution. Likewise, the consecrated hosts are distributed into various other vessels (typlically glass or ceramic) for distribution.

Oh, no. No, the vessels are supposed to be of an incorruptable metal, usually gold. Supposedly, this new letter or whatever it is is going to specify that.

I've seen some places use Waterford, but even that is not correct.

[Land of the Irish]

The bread and the cup are the body and blood, spiritually speaking.

No, it's just bread and wine in your church. In mine, It's the Body of Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

[broadsword]

We shouldn't take the words "this is my body" any more literally than we should take His words "I am the door" literally.

You may not take them literally, but the Apostles did and the crowds clearly did. The seventy-two left Him over those words. Especially after He said, "My body is real food and my blood is real drink." Those who spoke the same language as Him knew exactly what He meant and did not forsake the literal meaning of it. The Church, from the last supper to today, knows and remains faithful to His divine words and power.

And the "door" argument falls flat, as that lone statement was not the centerpiece of his mission for our salvation. The holy sacrifice and Blessed Sacrament IS the center of Christian life and has been so, uninterrupted, for 2,000 years. It took nearly 1,500 years for certain groups of Christians to break away from Christ's teaching and declare His word and command invalid.

If those groups were right, and 2,000 years of the Church that Jesus found wrong, then why did it take Jesus 1,500+ years to finally get His message through to us that His words did not mean what He insisted they meant and what ALL of his Apostles and their successors thought they meant?

Think about it before you throw your stones.

[broadsword]

Furthermore; this is a Catholic thread of Catholics discussing Catholic issues within the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then you show up to throw some rocks at what we hold most sacred and essential. Do you think you are going to convince us all to apostatize and embrace your heresy, or are you just here to bait, goad, disrupt and cause ill feelings?

What do you want?

What do you hope to accomplish?

[cebadams]

>> No, the vessels are supposed to be of an incorruptable metal, usually gold.

Thanks, I always thought so but it has become "custom" for a pitcher of wine to be placed on the altar, some poured into the challis, and after the consecration the pitcher is poured into the half-dozen goblets (usually crystal) for distribution.

Whether this is called abuse or not some enlightened guidance seems to be necessary at this point in time.

[sinkspur]

Does this mean that the vessels used by the Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers must be of incorruptible metals also?

No.

[sinkspur]

The GIRM specifies gold or precious metal for the chalice only.

[ultima ratio]

This has not been the result of neglect as you suggest. This has been the result of a deliberate policy to destroy the old Catholic Church. Its hierarchy is no longer Catholic but uses the expectation of Catholic docility to undermine the faith. The hope is that Catholics after a few generations will forget the old Church completely. In this it has failed--thanks to the resistance. We KNOW what Catholicism means--it means kneeling for Communion instead of standing; looking towards the next world, not towards this one; a consciousness of sinfulness and the need for repentence, not glorification of self. And it means the Mass is above all a SACRIFICE, not a friendly meal. What we have now is a new religion--imposed from the top. But there are faithful Catholics who refuse to go along--rightfully so, since the whole history of the Church for two thousand years has opposed the present course.

[cebadams]

The GIRM specifies gold or precious metal for the chalice only.

Thanks. I found this reference to the GRIM here but I don't see anything about incorruptible.

289. Among the requisites for the celebration of Mass, the sacred vessels hold a place of honor, especially the chalice and paten, which are used in presenting, consecrating, and receiving the bread and wine.

290. Vessels should be made from materials that are solid and that in the particular region are regarded as noble. The conference of bishops will be the judge in this matter. But preference is to be given to materials that do not break easily or become unusable.

291. Chalices and other vessels that serve as receptacles for the blood of the Lord are to have a cup of nonabsorbent material. The base may be of any other solid and worthy material.

292. Vessels that serve as receptacles for the Eucharistic bread, such as a paten, ciborium, pyx, monstrance, etc., may be made of other materials that are prized in the region, for example, ebony or other hard woods, as long as they are suited to sacred use.

293. For the consecration of hosts one rather large paten may properly be used; on it is placed the bread for the priest as well as for the ministers and the faithful.

294. Vessels made from metal should ordinarily be gilded on the inside if the metal is one that rusts; gilding is not necessary if the metal is more precious than gold and does not rust.

In my mind, nonabsorbent and gilded are not the same as incorruptible.

Also, the original point was to deny "using corruptible metals, glass or ceramic for the sacred vessels, including the chalice". The extra emphasis on including the chalice seems to mean that the other vessels are included in this part of the instruction.

[sinkspur]

The extra emphasis on including the chalice seems to mean that the other vessels are included in this part of the instruction.

Well, unless the upcoming liturgical document states otherwise, the above instructions from the GIRM have been interpreted here in the United States to allow the use of crystal and glass cups for the Precious Blood.