The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[P-Marlowe]

The mere fact that this has to be addressed reveals your infantile actions here Marlowe. Grow up!

So tell me. Just tell me flat out that God did not approve of the actions of those men. Just tell me that they acted in opposition to the express will of God.

Is that so hard. Do you have to respond by calling me infantile, but refusing to answer my questions? Sounds to me like you are either embarrassed by your answer, or you don't want to make a committment. Either way, insulting me personally is not responding to my inquiry.

Do you believe that Dahmer and Hitler were acting in concert with or in opposition to God's perfect will?

I say they were acting in opposition to the perfect will of God. What do you say?

[CCWoody]

***It's a horrible concept. And it's precisely one of the reasons why we disagree with Calvinism as it's preached here.***

I think you know that Calvinism neither approves, nor teaches that God approved of the actions of those men. You Arminians need to seriously grow up and quit acting like morons.

You need to quit laying out flamebait and then crying to the mods like whiny brats.

I won't play your asinine games, nor answer your questions.

Woody.

[Wrigley]

Then their not Independent Fundamental Baptist churches then, a true Independent Fundamental Baptist church will reject Calvinism.

Really? Do you speak for all IFBCs?

[CCWoody]

***It's a legitimate logical endpoint from the statement: "God has decreed everything."***

No, the assertion that God approved of Hitler's and Dahmer's actions is not the "logical endpoint." It is nothing more than the moronic stunt of people who have no interest in discussing anything. It is nothing more than flamebait.

And I won't play. Cry to the mods all you want. It won't change the fact that the lot of you are infantile jerks.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

***Just tell me flat out that God did not approve of the actions of those men.***

Nope! Not gonna play your stupid games. Grow up!

Woody.

[Alex Murphy]

Now tell me its false and I will retract it. Tell me that God did not approve of what Hitler and Dahmer did. Tell me that they were capable of resisting the will of God. Tell me that God did not approve of what they did. Tell me that God's perfect will would have had these men to do differently.

Tell me that your God was not in control of these people's every move.

I say that these people were not under the direct control of God. I say that these people were acting against the express perfect will of God. They were acting under the permissive will, but against the express will. Some Calvinists insist that there is no other will than God's perfect will, and thus all the Good and all the Bad are solely of God. What do you say?
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P-Marlowe, remember how I told to you read Romans chapter 9, starting with verse eleven, concerning Esau? Let's skip ahead to verse 19. Do you have any idea that, question for question, you are playing right into the Apostle Paul's hands, right down to the order you're asking these questions in?

Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?" For who resists His will?"

Romans 9:20
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" The thing molded will not say to the molder, "why did you make me like this," will it?

In other words, Marlowe, Paul tells us that we're way too small to be demanding that God give us the answer to the dilemma you put forth. Yes, He was still fully in control. Nothing resists His will. And yet Yes, Paul says they were still responsible.

So in the meantime, dwell on the words "like this", Marlowe. Ask yourself what "like this" means. Paul gave you the answer starting with chapter 9, verse 11, which I quoted before. You need to throw this whole chapter away, or find a completely different meaning for it, if you're going to keep making the demands and claims you did up in your post #136, above.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Don't speak for them, just know they don't accept Calvinism in any shape form or fashion.

BigMack

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All of life is ordained by God. All things work to the glory of God. It's His show. Sole credit; name above the title.

Pretty scary, huh? Much better, you say, to have Satan in control...at least of some part of it.

There's just no telling what's going to happen next, right? Shudder. I wish I knew the end of this story, so I wouldn't be so afraid. It's dark and who knows what Satan has in store for any of us?

I sure hope I choose correctly. Every door might be a trap; every footstep may be my last.

Egads. I wish I believed that God was in control and guiding me homeward.

Oh, wait. I do believe that. Whew. Thank you, God, for my life.

[Alex Murphy]

Really? Do you speak for all IFBCs?

If he did, or if they marched in lockstep to the guidelines he's outlining, they wouldn't really be Independent now, would they?

[xzins]

Why is it any different for one observer to go to the logical endpoint of calvinism's assertion of God's decreeing everything, than it is for another observer to conclude that arminians teach that people save themselves?

If it makes sense to go to "arminians save themselves" then it makes sense to say "God planned Hitler's behavior."

[Corin Stormhands]

I think you know that Calvinism neither approves, nor teaches that God approved of the actions of those men. You Arminians need to seriously grow up and quit acting like morons.

Feel free to call me a moron Woody. I doesn't bother me. And I won't ping the Mod.

But the fact is, the end result is that Calvinism must teach that those men were acting in the expressed will of God. We've been over that.

And if I had the time or the inclination to go searching for it, somewhere back there there's one of the swarm telling me (actually Ward) that "yes, Hitler was acting in God's will, otherwise He would have created him differently." (that's a paraphrase)

The only end result I can see in that is that God created Hitler for the express purpose of murdering 6,000,000 Jews.

I find little comfort in that.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

#130 Sorry I missed it.

BigMack

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Great post. Who are we, indeed.

[Alex Murphy]

Great post. Who are we, indeed.

Notice how some are still ignoring it? :)

[xzins]

some are ignoring it

Not so. I read it and didn't think it addressed the issues being discussed. Only tried to skirt them.

[Wrigley]

You know that every IFBC doesn't accept Calvinism. Yet you say you don't speak for them. Hedging a little on your opinion?

I mean, really, if you know what you claim for certian, you shouldn't have any problem speaking for them.

[CCWoody]

***Feel free to call me a moron Woody.***

I didn't call you a moron. I said you (meaning some of you Arminians) are acting like one. There is a difference.

***And I won't ping the Mod.***

Why not? Don't want the Mod to see how some of you Arminians really act and the flamebait you hang out!!! I wouldn't either. Frankly, I'd be ashamed.

I certainly will not be drawn into defending your accusations that, according to Calvinism, God approved of Hitler's actions. When you Arminians (and you know which ones you are) grow up a little, then perhaps we might have some intelligent dialogue.

Woody.

[Wrigley]

If he did, or if they marched in lockstep to the guidelines he's outlining, they wouldn't really be Independent now, would they?

Exactly.

[RnMomof7]

Now tell me its false and I will retract it. Tell me that God did not approve of what Hitler and Dahmer did. Tell me that they were capable of resisting the will of God. Tell me that God did not approve of what they did. Tell me that God's perfect will would have had these men to do differently.

Nothing can happen outside the will of God .

You would have to go a long way to surprise God Marlowe

[Vernon]

Who are we, indeed.

We are sinners, loved by a God of mercy as well as justice, who opens the door for whosoever will respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, not some egocentric, narcissistic, medieval tyrrant.