Posted on 02/07/2004 12:26:51 PM PST by Gamecock
Think man! In the real world independent fundamental baptist do NOT accept Calvinism and call it what it is, false teaching.
I know Independent churches who do accept it.
You have no idea what kind of trouble that you will cause if you try and inter an independent church as a pastor or missionary, when it is found out you are a Calvinist all hell will break lose, you will split a church and ruin many a faith if you choose to do so.
First of all, I would not enter a church without them knowing where I stood. Secondly, I would never split a church. I would rather leave one quietly than cause a rupture.
You will have to enter under the same not so honest way that you tried to sell what you believe to me for the last 6 mos or so, is that what you really want?
Say it like it is Mack. You think I've been lying to you. I'm sorry you think that way. And I'm even sorrier that you think I would lie about my beliefs in order to wheedle my way into a church.
I didn't buy what you were selling and someone else in the independent church were you will have come into dishonestly will see thru what you say also, even the most liberal indepent church will not put with Calvinism.
So now I am a liar and a cheat.
Do the right thing and don't cause trouble in the independent churches, align you self where you can be honest and accepted. Or better yet, stop being deceived.
You still haven't addressed the verses I put out there.
I will bro. And thanks for the prayers.
Then their not Independent Fundamental Baptist churches then, a true Independent Fundamental Baptist church will reject Calvinism.
First of all, I would not enter a church without them knowing where I stood. Secondly, I would never split a church. I would rather leave one quietly than cause a rupture.
If you don't join a pure Calvinist church if there is such a thing, you stand a great chance of causing trouble under a comprising pastor or congregation if they accept what you believe, all the members will NOT accept Calvinism, there is NO way to avoid trouble even in a so called Independent Fundamental Baptist church.
Say it like it is Mack.
Mack: Its Ok come on out of the closet. :)
ksen: I'm out, and the fresh air is great!
Don't half too, you did it for me. You were not totally upfront about what you believe with me until last night.
So now I am a liar and a cheat.
Kevin I like you and am not going to pull any punches because of that, you should understand that, there is NO way you will not cause trouble if you remain in ANY kind of Independent Fundamental Baptist church.
You still haven't addressed the verses I put out there.
There's nothing to address, Calvinism is false teaching. Ksen I ask and pray that you reconsider what you have embraced.
Mack
I thought we were talking about what scripture means.
Me too, but when I post Scriptures I am told that I am only "playing with words."
Do you want to convince me that I am given no choice but to beleive, or do you merely want to convince me of your own arrogance?
I'm not trying to convince you of either.
Consider the child who will be born tomorrow.
Does God know that child's parents and place of birth? Does God know that child's hair color; eye color; height; weight? Does God know the day that child's first tooth will fall out? Does God know the grades in school that child will receive?
Does God know the name of that child's future spouse? Does God know how many children that child will one day have? Does God know the names of those children? Does God know what jobs that child will hold? Does God know the illnesses that child will suffer?
Does God know the faith of that child? Does God know every prayer ever uttered by that child for his entire life? Does God know the burdens and sorrows of that child's life? Does God know the joys and triumphs of that child's life? Does God know the minute of the hour of the day of the year of the death of that child?
Does God know whether or not that child's name has been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world?
The answer to all these questions is "Yes, thank you, God."
If it is known to God, it is God's will. Otherwise, it wouldn't be.
And ALL is known to God.
If it's the job for you, you'll get it. If God has something better in mind for you -- onward.
The trick is to "thrill to the inevitable."
Someone once told me that in a similar situation, and it gave me great comfort. The key is the verb, "thrill."
What makes an Independent Fundamental Baptist church "Independent" and "Fundamental" and "Baptist?"
If you don't join a pure Calvinist church if there is such a thing, you stand a great chance of causing trouble under a comprising pastor or congregation if they accept what you believe, all the members will NOT accept Calvinism, there is NO way to avoid trouble even in a so called Independent Fundamental Baptist church.
The purpose of preaching and teaching is not to avoid trouble. If a Pastor preaches doctrine strongly, whatever the doctrine is, there will be division and trouble.
Mack: Its Ok come on out of the closet. :)
ksen: I'm out, and the fresh air is great!
Don't half too, you did it for me. You were not totally upfront about what you believe with me until last night.
I have been totally up front with you. This is not a stand I came to overnight. I did a lot of wrestling and praying about it. I now have a peace that I hadn't had before.
Whenever we talked about it I told you where I was.
Kevin I like you and am not going to pull any punches because of that, you should understand that, there is NO way you will not cause trouble if you remain in ANY kind of Independent Fundamental Baptist church.
I like you too Mack, and I don't expect soft punches from you. There is no way I'd avoid division in a church anyway because I would preach sound doctrine and I would preach it strongly. Even if I still believed exactly as you do it would cause division because today's Christians cannot abide doctrine when it is strongly preached.
There's nothing to address, Calvinism is false teaching. Ksen I ask and pray that you reconsider what you have embraced.
I appreciate and covet your prayers. Go ahead and show me where I am wrong in the things I have posted on this thread.
Don't be so fearful. Life is in very capable hands.
Yes he does. He knows whether or not that Child will respond to his call of grace or reject it. He knows. That it the key, Doc. He knows. He does not make that person sin against him. Neither does he make that person fall down and worship him. But he knows. That is the key. He knows. And he has known from the foundation of the earth.
Your Calvinism makes Jeffery Dahmer and Adolph Hitler true servants of the most high. They only did what God caused them to do. God does not cause men to sin against him. God does not force people to fall down and worship him. Not now anyways.
Let me ask you something Doc. You claim that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Did he Hate Esau when Esau was a little child? And that Child that is born tomorrow. If he is not elect. If he eventually will reject the Gospel, but right now is sucking his thumb and minding his own business, does God hate him now?
BTW is it false doctrine to have children sing the song: Jesus loves the little Children? Is that a false message? Does Jesus really love the little children, all the children of the world? Or does he hate some, or even most?
A ridiculous post deserves a ridiculous answer. ;-)
Not only since he was a little child, P-Marlowe, but if you'd open your Bible and start reading Romans 9:11, you'd see that He hated Esau before Esau was even born. So the question you need to answer yourself, Marlowe, is what does a man have to do to earn God's favor, if God wills that the man perish from before his birth?
"...for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy..."
The post was directed to Dr. Eckelberg. She is the one who claimed that every single action by every single person is God's perfect will in action. This would make Dahmer and Hitler true servants of the Most High. Sorry, but it's a logical conclusion.
Now tell me its false and I will retract it. Tell me that God did not approve of what Hitler and Dahmer did. Tell me that they were capable of resisting the will of God. Tell me that God did not approve of what they did. Tell me that God's perfect will would have had these men to do differently.
Tell me that your God was not in control of these people's every move.
I say that these people were not under the direct control of God. I say that these people were acting against the express perfect will of God. They were acting under the permissive will, but against the express will. Some Calvinists insist that there is no other will than God's perfect will, and thus all the Good and all the Bad are solely of God. What do you say?
So right there free will is refuted. And yet the howls will continue
Calm down Woody. We know the point that Marlowe is making makes you uncomfortable with your theology.
It's a horrible concept. And it's precisely one of the reasons why we disagree with Calvinism as it's preached here.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.