What Is Man?

Various | September 25, 2003 | betty boop

[betty boop]

Ok, since you disagree...what, exactly, did you add to bring salvation to His elect?

Am I now the "issue" here, HalfFull? You want to talk about me? What would be the point of that? I never claimed to be bringing salvation to anyone. I am not God!!!

[HalfFull]

The great work of Salvation has NOTHING to do with any work we do. -Me

Well I suppose that we will disagree about this, HalfFull. Of course, this is the very point of contention between Orthodox and Reformed Christianity.

Ok, since you disagree...what, exactly, did you add to bring salvation to His elect? -Me again

Am I now the "issue" here, HalfFull? You want to talk about me? What would be the point of that? I never claimed to be bringing salvation to anyone. I am not God!!!

No, Betty...you are not the issue, and I am not trying to make it personal. But, you said that you disagreed with what I said...that is, "The great work of Salvation has NOTHING to do with any work we do".

So, since you dissagree, I ask again....what specific work do you, me (or any other person) add to bring salvation to His elect? Your argument is that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. What other work is required for salvation? Please be specific. Thank you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Here’s a few verses to help draw the distinction I think you are making between what God has done and what we must do:

Involuntary:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. – Romans 8:29-30

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:42-43

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. - John 10:14-17

Voluntary:

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:25-28

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:46-48

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. – Hebrews 11:6

[Hank Kerchief]

...we can never fully comprehend the Father, not ever! That would be to make oneself of equal or greater stature.

Absolutely, A-G! We see "as if through a glass, darkly."

1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Now don't get on me, you guys, I'm only quoting the verse and aksing a question. In light of your protests about our limited knowledge, what can this verse mean?

Hank

[betty boop]

1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

We have "the mind of Christ" when we are fully formed in Him, by Him. But not before. And we cannot attain it on our own.

And we can only know what the human mind can know. Christ knows more than that.

[Alamo-Girl]

I agree with all of your points, betty boop! Thank you for the question, Hank!

All I have to add is that the capacity to receive Spiritual knowledge is different between Christians:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. - Hebrews 5:7-14

[betty boop]

Your argument is that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. What other work is required for salvation?

It is not my argument that Christ "is not enough"!!! Christ is everything, and without Him we are nothing. But He calls us, He comes to us -- are we who are "nothing" become "something," when we answer to His call.

The "work" required for salvation is to accept the Lord, and to live in the Lord. For humans, this is "work," indeed -- in the sense that it is not easy for a man to subdue his natural passions, perceived self-interest, and bodily desires, to put himself into Christ's "yoke," and to be ordered in and by God. It takes humility, and the spirit of submission engendered in and by the love of the Lord, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

To say otherwise would be to make the divine sacrifice on the Cross wholly pointless.

This is hardly a subtle concept, HalfFull. Why do you seem to be struggling with it so?

[Alamo-Girl]

I agree! Here are some supporting Scriptures:

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1 John 2:4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. - John 15:4-8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

[betty boop]

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Thank you so much, Alamo-Girl, for the on-point excerpts from scripture. How I do love John!

[HalfFull]

This is hardly a subtle concept, HalfFull. Why do you seem to be struggling with it so?

Please don't be angry, but I'm Not struggling with it at all...just trying to get a consistant answer. You did say back in post 317, didn't you, that you disagreed with my statement that Salvation has NOTHING to do with any work we do.

So...do we now agree?...Christ's finished work on the Cross IS all that is requred for the justification of the believer? (By justification I mean as Unger defines it: a divine act whereby an infinitely Holy God judicially declares a believing sinner to be righteous and acceptable before Him because Christ has borne the sinner's sin on the cross and has become "to us . . . righteousness")

[HalfFull]

AG, for someone who is on your virtual ignore list, you seem to be willingly inserting yourself into my discussions with another poster. If you think your insinuations (i.e., personal attacks) are being missed by me, your are mistaken.

You have asked me not to post to you or comment on your posts to another. I ask you for the same consideration. Thank You.

[f.Christian]

Salvation and sanctification are apples and oranges ... some people confuse glorification too --- real problems here doing that !

To do so is .... pharaseeism - cultism --- anti gospel - christism !

[betty boop]

Christ's finished work on the Cross IS all that is requred for the justification of the believer? (By justification I mean as Unger defines it: a divine act whereby an infinitely Holy God judicially declares a believing sinner to be righteous and acceptable before Him because Christ has borne the sinner's sin on the cross and has become "to us . . . righteousness")

All of this is true -- in the case of a believing sinner who keeps God's commandments: (1) To love God with one's whole heart and soul and mind; and (2) one's neighbor as one's self -- for the love of God.

It is not enough merely to believe in the Holy Scriptures, is my point. One must be re-formed in Christ.

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome! I love John also!

[HalfFull]

OK...thanks for your answer. We agree on most of the issue.

And thanks, also, to that mysterious poster who unfairly reported my actions to JR as a personal attack. I try hard to keep personal attacks out of my posts and have the courage to debate without pushing abuse because I simply disagree with another poster.

[betty boop]

You've been a fine correspondent and very civil to me, HalfFull. I think we all need to move on and "let bygones be bygones." Thank you so much for writing!

[JesseShurun]

I didn't mean you personally. It was a reference to mystics. However, now I have received a message from Jim Robinson to remove my comments elsewhere. The forum is now all yours, all the time. Now you can present your gnostic Christianity without any fear of correction. So much for honest and open discussion, thanks a lot, on behalf of true bible believing Christians everywhere

[betty boop]

Alamo-Girl, thank you so very much for posting the story about Martin Luther.

I read a bit about Luther's life in Jacques Barzun's excellent From Dawn to Decadence. It was said there that Luther had gone through a very dark period of intense spiritual suffering that lasted quite a long time, as he was struggling to come into conformity with Christ. He had somehow become convinced he was utterly lost of God, utterly damned. Finally, by the grace of God, he learned otherwise, was able to emerge from that desperate state of spiritual isolation and suffering, and "put on the new man" in Christ.

Clearly, from the passages you posted, Luther was prepared to accept martyrdom rather than break faith with the fruits of grace and the Holy Spirit that came out of that dark struggle in his soul -- mediated, I am sure, by Christ Jesus.

Fortunately, God had other plans for him....

Thank you so much for writing!

[f.Christian]

hugs ... more hugs --- extra hugs !

[DittoJed2]

Betty, please do not flag me to this thread or the rest of the creationists. Several of our names were reported to JimRob and as a result we are on the verge of having our posting privileges revoked. As such, I'd prefer not to be drawn in any further to this fray. Thank you. DJ2.