Posted on 09/24/2003 11:25:56 PM PDT by betty boop
Who's view is this, betty? Could it be... the biblical view?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10
In that case, it seems to me that suffering would be perfectly pointless and gratuitous, too.
Does that then include Christ's suffering? Was it then pointless and gratuitous?
more unscriptual goofiness, totally against what Christ said:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[JS:] more unscriptual goofiness, totally against what Christ said:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
How can Christ draw the soul to the Father, if the soul hasn't first said "yes" to Christ? This is what I meant by saying the soul must first turn toward -- or "tune into" -- Christ, in love. Then the great work of salvation can begin.
Of course not, Jesse. But this is a non-sequitur: We were speaking of human suffering. My point was that God must have a very high opinion of man to have sent His Son to redeem us and restore us to Him in the first place.
If you read what I write with attention, Jesse, you might find you can avoid putting words in my mouth.
Do you imagine that I haven't?
Jesse, this statement is an absolute absurdity. Scripture can't "interpret" scripture. Only a mind can interpret anything. Interpretation is a cognitive act; and scripture is not "cognitive." It is information -- divinely inspired and absolutely true -- in search of a knower, a mind, a soul.
Earlier you suggested that Christ's revelation to us was the complete revelation of the Mind of God. I strongly doubt this view is scripturally valid. For the great theologican and spiritual writer, Francis Schaeffer, observed that, in the Holy Scriptures, God has told us of Himself "truly, but not exhaustively." That is to say, He did not communicate everything about Himself -- likely because there would be no way for the human mind to take it all in, to understand God's Mind, Will, and Purpose.
That is why the more mystical spiritual traditions of Christianity invariably posit a "cloud of knowing" or a "dark night" as being betwixt the human mind and God's Love and Truth. The closer we draw to Him in meditation, the more we notice this "cloud." But its very presence means God is near. I imagine that "cloud" is there to protect man; for God cannot be comprehended -- God the Father is the Unseen God of the burning bush, the I Am That Am. Man cannot contemplate Eternal Being in full -- his mind is not capacious enough, and the effort likely may destroy him.
Plato's daimon can't help you and no amount of rocking in your room, with your eyelids turned up twitching, helps either.
My word you have do an active imagination, Jesse! But making me the butt of a silly joke doesn't help your argument.
Very interesting insight. God and Truth are One. Thanks, Uno Animo.
That is man-made doctrine and is not supported in scripture AT ALL. God is the one who choses us (not the other way around), as evidenced in many, many scriptures. Consider the following:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
(Ephesians 1:3-6)
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, " (Eph 2:1-2)
++++++++++++++
The spiritually dead are not capable of "saying yes" without first being made alive by God.
This is what I meant by saying the soul must first turn toward -- or "tune into" -- Christ, in love. Then the great work of salvation can begin.
The great work of Salvation has NOTHING to do with any work we do.
But I do not discount either the revealed Word of God or the revealed nature of Christ!
I look at things this way, Jesse. (1) I believe that Christ is the Word of the Beginning, the Logos that was "God, and with God," as the beloeved apostle tells us. (2) This Logos is the Alpha and the Omega -- which suggests to me that the Logos has been in the world since the Beginning. The incarnation of Christ brought it into actual human history. But even before that event, there were human minds capable of "sensing" the Logos. Certainly the Prophets spoke of it; and Plato seems to have "stumbled" upon some part of its Truth. (3) As a student of culture and history, I find this the most marvelous mystery! (4) IMHO, all of human spiritual history throughout all time is an increasing revelation of the Logos. There is One God, and One Truth -- and the Truth is the Logos. Even human secular history, human evolution, is bound to more fully manifest it in the world.
Well, them be my thoughts, FWTW.
This is the Truth, goodseedhomeschool! And also the problem -- some men choose not to love Him. I agree with you, this is the single most important decision a man can make.
God chooses. Certainly, yes. But, a man chosen must still say "YES."
Well I suppose that we will disagree about this, HalfFull. Of course, this is the very point of contention between Orthodox and Reformed Christianity.
I shudder to think of what happened to one who tried:
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more. - Ezekiel 28:16-19
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now [with] majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one [that is] proud, and abase him. Look on every one [that is] proud, [and] bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. - Job 40:6-14
Absolutely, A-G! We see "as if through a glass, darkly." For any man to say he knows God, His Truth, His Will, His Purpose, or His Methods fully, completely, is absurd -- and most likely culpable.
Well I suppose that we will disagree about this, HalfFull. Of course, this is the very point of contention between Orthodox and Reformed Christianity.
Ok, since you disagree...what, exactly, did you add to bring salvation to His elect?
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