Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts as Politicized and Ethnically Divisive

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/77206 ^ | September 20, 2003 | The International Strategic Studies Association (ISSA)

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

I am new to the Balkan threads. One thing for sure, IF clinton/clark had anything to do with a foreign policy, THEN IT HAD TO BOGUS.>>

I hate Clinton and all his works and worked for his impeachment. Nevertheless his intervention in Bosnia, EVEN FOR THE WRONG REASONS, was the right thing to do, because (a) the Serbs would have done to Gorazde, Sarajevo etc what they DID in Srebrenica/Bratunac, and (b) the Muslims would have been left in a tiny bantustan which would have REALLY radicalized them: the Serbs and OBL would have had the same ultimate goal. I've said it before: the stopped clock principle applies.

Of course, this is because I'm a clintonoid and a participant in the Worldwide Conspiracy Against The Serbs, right? Of course right. :-P pfffffft.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

From a Clark site: "Clark in 2004 Supporters Worldwide. So far, 30668 have signed up." (worldwide? illegal aliens in Kosovo vote in the US now?)>>

Man, losing bites, don't it?

[getoffmylawn]

Thank you for the very thoughful and interesting post.

Inquest, actually whether or not some of the Albanians had fired weapons sometime prior to being killed is irrelevant. For the Serb forces to kill a combatant under their control was just as wrong as deliberately killing a noncombatant or civilian. And that is what occurred at Racak--Serbs murdered Albanians.

Although Wraith hasn't been around much lately, I'm pinging him to this thread in hopes that he'll engage you in a Racak discussion. He was in Racak nearly immediately after the supposed massacre took place and he sees the incident in a much different light. He believes that the Albanians killed at Racak were loyal to Rugova and were forced to fight and die by forces loyal to Thaci. Other sources of mine that were very close to the investigation are as sure that Racak was a set up as you claim Ranta is sure that Serbs murdered Albanians under their control. I've always believed that it was a set up, but you seem to be a person of integrity so I'll keep an open mind.

I was a skeptic, having been against the entire Kosovo intervention and having encountered overblown claims by ethnic Albanians in other instances, to include "victims" who had been coached by the KLA. However, in the Racak case--as well as many others--it is irrefutable that Serb elements--usually paramilitaries, but sometime the Yugo Army or police, committed murder.

Ironicly, Wraith was FOR the intervention by NATO to stop the Serbs' clumsy counter-insurgency campaign [I believe there's been much too much "the Serbs are evil" and not nearly enough criticism of their incompetent and outdated tactics of counter-insurgency] yet he is convinced Racak was a set up and William Walker was the point man.

Your description of just who the Serb perpetrators of atrocities in Kosovo were is just how I understand it. As far as I can tell, it the crimes were usually committed by paramilitary forces or spontaneous local Serb militias with an axe to grind. I've talked to a few guys that were regular Serb army or MUPs in Kosovo and they told me that they had very specific orders handed down from Milosevic NOT to harm any Albanians that weren't hurting Serbs. While I'm certainly no big fan of Milosevic, these former soldiers and police officers claim that Milosevic actually prevented a genocide in Kosovo. Now THAT'S irony.

time to open your eyes & your minds.

That's great advice for anybody. Ideally, I believe, everyone should wake up every morning and say this to themselves before they begin to approach the day.

No matter how much I learn about the various elements and incidents that are part of the divorce proceedings of the former Yugoslavia, each day I tell myself, "Then again... I could be dead wrong." There's way too much BS flying around about the former Yugoslavia to be too sure of anything that went on there.

[getoffmylawn]

The only thing that makes your hatred of Serbs tolerable is the fact that you're not bright enough to hide it.

[getoffmylawn]

Gde si, bre?

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

The only thing that makes your hatred of Muslims tolerable is the fact that you don't have the same means of expressing it that certain Serbs did during the war.

[judywillow]

The genesis of the recent problems in Kosovo was Milosevic rescinding the autonomy of the Kosovo region in 89

As I read it, he had to; every other ethnic group in Kosovo was being brutalized by albanian savages. The web site linked above is a NY Times article from 1987. A few highlights:

...A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks, killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others.

...The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided.

...Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

...Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls...

There's a lot more. I mean, don't you just love the idea of your tax dollars being used to bomb an innocent Christian country into the stone age for these kinds of people?

[alternatediscourse]

The ride will go on again next year, despite the first-time setbacks encountered. They were expected but they were noted for erasure in 2004.

[alternatediscourse]

Judywillow, you are supporting your opinion with articles from anti-American lefties--doesn't that give you a little pause

You quote from "Pro-American or Anti-Serb" sites, right? They will spin their stories and "facts" to highlight their cause.

[alternatediscourse]

It's just you are only good for entertainment. You are pathetic in your hatred... Do you think I hate muslims?

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

Do you think I hate muslims?>>

To a remarkable extent, yes, I think you do.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

There's a lot more. I mean, don't you just love the idea of your tax dollars being used to bomb an innocent Christian country into the stone age for these kinds of people?>>

It might if it were true.

[alternatediscourse]

Would it shock you that I dated a practicing Muslim woman and even brought her to my Church on our Eastern Orthodox Easter services?

[alternatediscourse]

change your name from ronly bonly to bonehead jones, please. You are beyond disbelief, homeagain balkansvet.

[Lion in Winter]

That ronly-whatever is a clark/clinton foreign policy supporter and should NOT be on this site.

2004 is looming large and clark/clinton are now and will be continuing to go after Bush on his Iraq policy.

BUSH will go after the demon-twins of clark/clinton on the failed mission in Kosovo.

This election is not going to be just on the USA economy.

[Lion in Winter]

They may not be able to vote but that money from illegal activities can sure fill clark/clinton's coffers up fast. Count on it. Soros, another albanian supporter will be contributing as well... he hates BUSH.

[alternatediscourse]

You see how bonehead shut his suck when I made a fool of his own bigotry when I opened up part of my personal life and made that revelation? haaaahhhhhhh!! SHOCKING!

it was a US civilian worker in Bosnia, and his own vile racism is sick.

[FormerLib]

That's RJB's next play fron his limited playbook, "Oh, you are just so MEAN and you hate all Muslims so I can ignore any truths you speak!"

Geez, does this guy celebrate the 911 attacks everyday? Hello?

[FormerLib]

His biggest worry is that we've been reminded about who are true enemies are and the Serbs that he hates so completely are back on their way to the US' Allies list!

[judywillow]

In all honesty, I don't even know any Serbs. What I do know is that during the eight-year reign of terror of the Clinton administration, only two groups of people to my knowledge ever tried to stand up to the beast and face it down, and that was Slobodan Milosevic and his Serbs, and the Mormons in Utah. That has to rate respect.

Other than that, there is the very real spectre of the UN stepping in and demanding that we hand Texas and California over to Mexico on this perverse basis of ethnicity being everything and ownership and sovereignty not counting for anything anymore. The precedent of Kosovo cannot be allowed to stand.