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To: NMC EXP
A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others.

Good enough.  But it falls off after that.

There are various kinds of rights:

        Natural or inalienable rights (Life, liberty, etc.)  These exist even in a state of nature.

        Civil rights (the right to vote, trial by jury, etc)  These exist in a state of society and are dependant upon the society which   has been established.

        Legal rights, established in laws and courts.

Civil rights and legal rights are not universal. For instance, those who are not citizens may not have the right to vote in national elections.

The author says:

This means you do not have the right to the time in another person’s life. You do not have a right to other people’s money. You do not have the right to another person’s property. If you wish to acquire some moneyfrom another person, you must earn it—then you have a right to it. If you wish to gain some benefit from the time of another person’s life, you must gain it through the voluntary cooperation of that individual—not through coercion. If you wish to possesssome item of property of another individual, you must buy it on terms acceptable to the owner—not gain it through theft.
Perhaps that's a matter of interpretation.  If another person or other people infringe on my rights or fail in any obligation they have to me, I might have a right to their life, money, property or time and I may use coercion in regard to that right.

The author says:

You may swat a fly or mosquito, killing them both. You do not have the right to do the same to another human being, except in self-defense.
Again, perhaps that's a matter of interpretaion. An individual can have the right to kill someone who "needs killing" whether it's a matter of self-defense or not.  (In "civilized" societies, individuals exercise this right through the legal system via the death penalty.)

While it's true that the actual meaning of a right has been corrupted, it is also true that people  may have claims on each others lives by virtue of what for lack of a better term could be called a social contract.  Maybe problems regarding statism arise when people deviate from the original terms of the contract.   Anybody who doesn't feel obligated by the contract is of course free ignore it and do as they wish but they should also be ready to suffer consequences imposed by those who believe they have a property right in the society and do not wish it to be violated.

11 posted on 08/31/2003 11:54:20 AM PDT by KrisKrinkle
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To: KrisKrinkle
"Civil rights (the right to vote, trial by jury, etc) These exist in a state of society and are dependant upon the society which has been established."

Aren't civil rights an extension of property rights, in that the government is an entity in which we all have joint ownership, and thus property rights to, because the "...right to property is the right to take the action needed to create and/or earn the material means needed for living. Once you have earned it, then that particular property is yours—which means: you have the right to control the use and disposal of that property."

15 posted on 08/31/2003 12:17:16 PM PDT by Voice in your head ("The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." - Thucydides)
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To: KrisKrinkle
KrisKrinkle said:
"Civil rights (the right to vote, trial by jury, etc) These exist in a state of society and are dependant upon the society which has been established. "

KrisKrinkle also said:
"Maybe problems regarding statism arise when people deviate from the original terms of the contract. Anybody who doesn't feel obligated by the contract is of course free ignore it and do as they wish but they should also be ready to suffer consequences imposed by those who believe they have a property right in the society and do not wish it to be violated."

I think you are right on here.

I, for example, have withdrawn my consent to be governed due to infringements of my right to keep and bear arms.

So far, none of my actions have been criminal, but I reserve without ethical qualms to right to fight tyranny. As the number of us who also withdraw our consent grows, this will become more important to the future of our nation.

Some people find the "Free State Project" to be rather humorous. I see it as a beginning of the process of withdrawing consent. If our nation wishes to avoid the type of break-up which happened to the Soviet Union, then the nation must return to the Constitution which was established with the consent of the governed.

22 posted on 08/31/2003 1:43:31 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: KrisKrinkle
Civil rights and legal rights are not universal. For instance, those who are not citizens may not have the right to vote in national elections.

I believe the author only referred to natural rights.

Perhaps that's a matter of interpretation. If another person or other people infringe on my rights or fail in any obligation they have to me, I might have a right to their life, money, property or time and I may use coercion in regard to that right.

The libertarian "non agression principle" does cover self defense if someone initiates an act of agression against you. I believe Huxtable covers that in another essay.

While it's true that the actual meaning of a right has been corrupted, it is also true that people may have claims on each others lives by virtue of what for lack of a better term could be called a social contract.

I disagree. One person's need can never constitute a claim on the resources of another. We can have purely voluntary social obligations to address the needs of another but that cannot constitute a right.

Maybe problems regarding statism arise when people deviate from the original terms of the contract.

When people fail to fulfill their social obligations to family and neighbors the state is ready and willing to step in by claiming the needs of the poor do constitute a claim on the resources of the rest.

Regards

J.R.

33 posted on 08/31/2003 5:00:59 PM PDT by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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