Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido
lol, he started a test colony in Haiti in the spring of 1863 (contract authorized in April 1863), and it ran throughout that year and until early 1864. By that time the radicals were well into the process of shutting him down and taking away his colonization money. Even after they did, he still wanted to keep his "colonization" commissioner, a clear indication he wasn't giving up on his pet program even though his funds had been pulled for the moment. As for him making statements, he made some doosies. Just read Butler's book. (and see below)
He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem,...
If you'll bother to read the beginning of Abe's letter, he specifically states:
"If I were to judge from the letter, without any external knowledge, I should suppose that all the colored people South of Washington were struggling to get to Massachusetts; that Massachusetts was anxious to receive and retain the whole of them as permament citizens; and that the United States Government here was interposing and preventing this. But I suppose these are neither really the facts, nor meant to be asserted as true by you."
LOL, don't you even read the stuff you post?. Lincoln's follow-up comment in his letter to Governer Andrew that you referenced is clearly poking fun at Andrew's hyperboles, which Lincoln points out in the very beginning of the letter. Andrew wanted black labor for Massachusett's industry and made it sound like the entire country and war effort would collapse if he didn't get it. The "very difficult point" that Lincoln refers to in the follow-up, and which you refer to as a "problem", is obviously "where" to send the black people. Lincoln is making reference to his desire to colonize the black people somewhere, and joking with Andrew about using Massachusetts. That, BTW, was in 1864.
...and he often said that blacks should have their full liberty
He often said they should excercise their liberties somplace far AWAY from white people. Like, -NOT- in North America. Like maybe in South America, or Africa, or Central America, or the Carribbean. Those were the places he suggested, anyway. But NOT here, or in the territories. He wanted the territories to be for white people, and he said so.
...and he worked hard on the passage of the 13th and 14th amendments,...
He was always against slavery, that's true, and he did support the 'second' 13th amendment. But it's also a -fact- that he "worked hard" to pass the original 13th Amendment -protecting- slavery forever. As to the 14th, I hardly think anyone can say he "worked hard" for its passage.
...and he worked to get black soldiers the vote.
"worked"? He mentioned his support of the idea one time in public, and then only to make it clear he did not agree with the other Republicans who wanted all blacks to have it. At the very end, he only supported the idea of letting soldiers and "the very intelligent" have it. What about the rest, since he was obviously making conditional and exclusionary non-hereditary distinctions. What did he intend for the rest, or the offspring of the small group he was willing to give it to? I think his discussion with Butler answers that obvious question.
"Negro equality! Fudge!! How long, in the government of a God, great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagougeism as this." - Abraham Lincoln circa 1859/60 (Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 3, page 399)
As you seem either unwilling or unable to comprehend the Lincoln letter you continue to post, or you choose to deliberately misrepresent what it says, I will translate it for you.
The Governor of Massachusetts wanted to import Blacks from Virginia for the purpose of recruiting them into the army. According to Epperson's web site, there were only 9,362 blacks in the state of Massachusetts in 1860. Yea verily, the Underground Railroad did not stop in Massachusetts. The Governor of Massachusetts did not want black people living in the state, he wanted them imported just long enough to put them in the army and export them back out of the state.
Let me simplify this. Governor Andrews did not want to fill his conscription requirement with White people. The almost lily-white state had no black people to force into service. They wanted to import Black people to fill their conscription quota.
Either you deliberately ignore, or are unable to comprehend, the sarcasm of Lincoln's response to Governor Andrews.
Washington, February 18. 1864.Governor Andrew
Yours of the 12th was received yesterday. If I were to judge from the letter, without any external knowledge, I should suppose that all the colored people South of Washington were struggling to get to Massachusetts; that Massachusetts was anxious to receive and retain the whole of them as permament citizens; and that the United States Government here was interposing and preventing this. But I suppose these are neither really the facts, nor meant to be asserted as true by you. Coming down to what I suppose to be the real facts, you are engaged in trying to raise colored troops for the U. S. and wish to take recruits from Virginia, through Washington, to Massachusetts for that object; and the loyal Governor of Virginia, also trying to raise troops for us, objects to you taking his material away; while we, having to care for all, and being responsible alike to all, have to do as much for him, as we would have to do for you, if he was, by our authority, taking men from Massachusetts to fill up Virginia regiments. No more than this has been intended by me; nor, as I think, by the Secretary of War. There may have been some abuses of this, as a rule, which, if known, should be prevented in future.
If, however, it be really true that Massachusetts wishes to afford a permanent home within her borders, for all, or even a large number of colored persons who will come to her, I shall be only too glad to know it. It would give relief in a very difficult point; and I would not for a moment hinder from going, any person who is free by the terms of the proclamation or any of the acts of Congress.
A. Lincoln
Isn't that the truth, and they will call you a Nazi! I wonder if any of them ever really read any of the books on Hitler or by Hitler?
Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, pp. 903-8
A conversation was held between us after the negotiations had failed at Hampton Roads, and in the course of the conversation he said to me: --
QUOTING LINCOLN
"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves."You have been a stanch friend of the race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water, -- your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have no use for our very large navy; what, then are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away?
"If these black soldiers of ours go back to the South I am afraid that they will be but little better off with their masters than they were before, and yet they will be free men. I fear a race war, and it will be at least a guerilla war because we have taught these men how to fight. All the arms of the South are now in the hands of their troops, and when we capture them we of course will take their arms. There are plenty of men in the North who will furnish the negroes with arms if there is any oppression of them by their late masters.
"I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported. I wish also you would give me any views that you have as to how to deal with the negro troops after the war. Some people think that we shall have trouble with our white troops after they are disbanded, but I don't anticipate anything of that sort, for all the intelligent men among them were good citizens or they would not have been good soldiers. But the question of the colored troops troubles me exceedingly. I wish you would to this as soon as you can, because I am to go down to City Point shortly and may meet negotiators for peace there, and I may want to talk this matter over with General Grant if he isn't too busy."
CLOSE QUOTE BUTLER QUOTING LINCOLN
Well, if you believe all that, you might as well take the following and declare Abe to be an early pioneer fighting for women's suffrage.
Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865.: Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 1.
CW:1:48
To the Editor of the Sangamo Journal [1]
NEW SALEM, June 13, 1836.
To the Editor of the Journal:
In your paper of last Saturday, I see a communication over the signature of ``Many Voters,'' in which the candidates who are announced in the Journal, are called upon to ``show their hands.'' Agreed. Here's mine!
I go for all sharing the privileges of the government, who assist in bearing its burthens. Consequently I go for admitting all whites to the right of suffrage, who pay taxes or bear arms, (by no means excluding females.)
If elected, I shall consider the whole people of Sangamon my constituents, as well those that oppose, as those that support me. [2]
While acting as their representative, I shall be governed by their will, on all subjects upon which I have the means of knowing what their will is; and upon all others, I shall do what my own judgment teaches me will best advance their interests. Whether elected or not, I go for distributing the proceeds of the sales of the public lands to the several states, to enable our state, in common with others, to dig canals and construct rail roads, without borrowing money and paying interest on it.
If alive on the first Monday in November, I shall vote for Hugh L. White for President. [3]
Very respectfully,
A. LINCOLN.
Annotation
[1] Sangamo Journal, June 18, 1836.
[2] Lincoln received the highest vote of the seventeen Sangamon County candidates for the legislature on election day, August 1. The seven members elected from Sangamon were Whigs.
[3] Hugh Lawson White, United States Senator from Tennessee, led Van Buren in New Salem 65 to 34; in Springfield 719 to 376; and in Sangamon County 1463 to 903. Van Buren carried the state 18,459 to 15,240. White received the electoral votes of only two states, Tennessee and Georgia.
"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves.
You haven't quoted Lincoln. You've quoted Butler as saying, "here is what Lincoln said."
Without corroboration, it means little.
Walt
Look up there ^. That is Wlat being quoted by me. That is me saying, "here is what Wlat said." And that is what Wlat said, word for word. As usual, it means little.
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol. 2, page 130
Abraham Lincoln
July 6, 1852
HONORS TO HENRY CLAY
Having been led to allude to domestic slavery so frequently already, I am unwilling to close without referring more particularly to Mr. Clay's views and conduct in regard to it. He ever was, on principle and in feeling, opposed to slavery. The very earliest, and one of the latest public efforts of his life, separated by a period of more than fifty years, were both made in favor of gradual emancipation of the slaves in Kentucky. He did not perceive, that on a question of human right, the negroes were to be excepted from the human race. And yet Mr. Clay was the owner of slaves. Cast into life where slavery was already widely spread and deeply seated, he did not perceive, as I think no wise man has perceived, how it could be at once eradicated, without producing a greater evil, even to the cause of human liberty itself.
I would call your attention to the primary fact the Butler is so slandered to day is that he formed not only the first regiments of Americans of African heritage, but also the first Amry Corps officered by Americans of African heritage. THey beat some of Lee's 'best' too, but our history avoids that. Read BLack Jack pershings comments such troops to get an idea of just how hard set the hostilities to Butler were, let alone all the slander in the commonly accepted histories of the man.
Butler's book, by the way, is excellent and an extremely enjoyable insight into the times. As for the time of his writing it, so what? He was in politics all his life, and most politicians didn't write memoirs until their retirement in those days.
Ben Butler slammed the KKK in 1871, and killed in the 1960's. God bless the man and ground he walked. When Lincoln asked him to be his Vice president Butler told him 'only if you agree to die or resign in three months.' Now you know why.
Thaddeus Stevens freed the slaves, Charles Sumner at least graced the Constitution with an amendment anyone could read but almost no one honered for a hundred years. Lincoln gets the credit because the popular perception has been since the EP that he did free the slaves. Nearly all of the poeple were fooled most of the time, but Thaddeus wasn't either.
The real heart of your argument is that Lincoln didn't write his memoroirs in 4 days. That's not a sound argument for anything. Anyone well familiar with Lincoln will know he shared the same attitudes Stephens did about telling everyone the same thing. He didn't. The idea that you could be sure of anything he wrote on the matter is therefore questionable in any case. Butler, however, went to the matt for Americans of African heritage, and has been buried in racist defensive garbage for it. That Lincoln wasn't speaks volumes in plain english.
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