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Ethnic Intimidation - PA Bill 1493 Passed 12/02
The PA House of Representatives web page ^
Posted on 07/30/2003 3:39:03 AM PDT by bets
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Do you know if legally just one person can file a complaint against the state that a bill is unconstitutional? I don't see where we should have to have 100's of people to make a case - just like in law, all it should take is one person filing a motion, and the point is made....do you know law?
How about alerting Jay Seculo and the American Center for Law and Justice? I think I'll do that, but we shouldn't give up on our Constitutional rights as Freepers. Gee, everybody's so quick to say they'll fight when the Constitution will be taken away ....WAKE UP PEOPLE, IT'S TODAY, AND IN THIS CASE IT WAS 12/02 YESTERDAY. Let's put our action where our mouth is.
posted on 07/30/2003 1:09:31 PM PDT
I'm not getting any response from many if any Freepers. ("Who cares until they come to MY state?" - that's a heck of an attitude for an American) No matter, I'll let you know what Jay Seculo says.
posted on 07/30/2003 4:50:43 PM PDT
Do you know if legally just one person can file a complaint against the state that a bill is unconstitutional? I don't see where we should have to have 100's of people to make a case - just like in law, all it should take is one person filing a motion, and the point is made
Sure you could do it - in theory. In practice the costs would eat you up and without a groundswell of support behind you the case would go nowhere. In real life you need lots of people to make things happen.
....do you know law?
I'm not an attorney if that's what you mean.
"Gee, everybody's so quick to say they'll fight when the Constitution will be taken away ...." Let's put our action where our mouth is.
You're going to find your biggest problem will be getting support from people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
See what you can get from Jay Seculo and the ACLJ. Do your homework on the entire subject. See what can and cannot be done. See what's possible and what's not possible. Get facts, facts, and more facts. Find support wherever you can, both in your local area and on the net. If you're determined to commit yourself to this project then realize that it will take time.
Fighting city hall has never been easy, but then who said freedom came easy?
posted on 07/30/2003 6:04:20 PM PDT
(Legislation Without Representation is Tyranny)
posted on 07/30/2003 6:10:35 PM PDT
LETTER TO BE MAILED THURSDAY:
July 31, 2003
American Center for Law and Justice
PO Box 64429
Virginia Beach, VA 23467
RE: Ethnic Intimidation, PA House Bill 1493 passed 12/3/02
Thank you for your great and necessary work.
Would you please let me know via phone message or email if your organization is familiar with the "Ethnic Intimidation" Pennsylvania House Bill 1493 that passed Dec. 3, 2002? If so, has any action been taken or is planned to help remedy this loss of the Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of practicing religion?
I've enclosed a hardcopy of the text of the bill from a conservative news/chat website where I reported it (I am "bets"). This bill in essence makes it illegal to preach or read scriptures from the Bible (as in give a sermon from the pulpit) against homosexuality: "harassment by communication or address
motivated by hatred toward
sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity
And I found out that many of my Christian friends in PA tried to stop this from passing, but couldn't, and now are at a loss as to how to proceed to get their Constitutional rights back. This is why I contacted your organization: for either your suggestions or your action. If a state or federal bill is unConstitutional, then it shouldn't take more than one citizen to file an action against it, right? How does one do that, or could you do that (or already started?).
This is the first U.S. state where I've heard that they've actually outlawed the preaching of parts of the Bible. I read a book once where a pastor in CA fought against this years ago, and won. But here it is now in force in PA (my old home state). I have an older brother in PA who is a minister, and this is very important not just for that reason, but for the sake of this not becoming a precedent for other states.
I appreciate your time and response in this Constitutional matter of freedom of religion and speech.
posted on 07/31/2003 2:49:48 AM PDT
I contribute to Jay Sekulow's organization and applaud him for his fine work.
It's my guess that he'll wait until a specific case comes up that's harmful to the Christian community, such as an individual pastor being charged for preaching a "hate sermon" under this act. Then he'll challenge the constitutionality of the act.
posted on 07/31/2003 6:46:12 AM PDT
Thanks for posting this statute. I need it for research.
posted on 07/31/2003 6:48:39 AM PDT
You've started the ball rolling with your letter to the ACLJ, but don't sit back and wait for a quick reply. If you don't get a reply within ten working days give them a followup letter or e-mail. Remember to make a paper trail of your letters and e-mails, and make detailed notes of all your phone conversations.
While the letter is traveling to the ACLJ start talking to the people around you about the bill and start to build support for its defeat. Your letter said that you've talked to friends in PA about it so you've already got people on your side to work with. You have an older brother who's a minister in PA and certainly he should have some support against this bill as well. It seems that you have a readymade constituency to start working with. The trick now is to organize that constituency. Start with yourself, your brother, and close friends.
As far as support goes I'd take it from whatever quarter it came from, but I'd recommend looking among the people who have the most to lose because of this bill. The religious institutions in this nation, and the people who man them, are your best sources for support.
Most Americans are religious and don't want their religion altered by the government. Think about having pastors and ministers hold church dinners where the subject is discussed. Get pastors and ministers to mail out literature to their congregations. I'd be very surprised if some of this isn't already taking place. Above all let the backers of the bill know that they'll pay a political price at the voting booth.
Now you have to plan ahead and look at the down side. What happens if the bill isn't repealed? Then you have to find a way to emasculate it. To pull its teeth so it's an impotent piece of legislation. Challenge it in the courts, work with sympathetic politicians to add amendments to it, water it down any way you can until it's a shell without meaning. Go after the politicians who sponsered the bill and work to get them removed from office so they don't sponser another such bill.
All of this may sound difficult but it's definately doable. I said this would take time, and you've just taken a first step with your letter.
posted on 07/31/2003 8:41:22 AM PDT
(Legislation Without Representation is Tyranny)
You're probably right about the waiting for a specific case to come up, and maybe that's a good strategy - gives you a target and real people to defend, and real people are harder to ignore.
posted on 07/31/2003 9:05:20 AM PDT
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I'm off to the po (the ACLJ web site is smart - only letters or phone calls are options from their contact page - that way, a fast email isn't an option, you have to be serious enough about an issue to mail the letter or pay the long distance.)
posted on 07/31/2003 9:07:30 AM PDT
A nation of fools and their freedoms are soon parted!
posted on 08/01/2003 6:18:47 PM PDT
by The Duke
I'm from PA. Where can I find a list of State Reps that voted for this piece of garbage? I'll also print out a copy of this and get my husband to show it to our pastor and the board of directors.
I can't say they are particularly politically active but they have shown a notion in the past for activism for pro-life and some other issues. It would just be helpful to know if any of the Reps from District 9 (that's ours!) were involved.
posted on 08/02/2003 2:12:02 AM PDT
I'm sure it's in line w/the ones who introduced the bill:
HB 1493 By Representatives
L. I. COHEN
posted on 08/02/2003 2:44:16 AM PDT
You can directly get the bill info off the PA House of Representatives web site - go to the Sessions link, then the Electronic bill link. But here's the link directly to this bill after you do a HB1493 lookup:
posted on 08/02/2003 2:47:09 AM PDT
To: bets; All
According to this article this type of Hate Crimes Legal protection against bible believers is already enacted in several states.
What do you think???
Hate Crimes Legislation Could Trigger Lawsuits, Family Groups Warn
by: Lawrence Morahan
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
Published: November 22, 2002 by the CNSNews.com
(CNSNews.com) - If passed, hate crimes legislation currently before the Pennsylvania House of Representatives could subject to lawsuits church ministers who express traditional views from the pulpit on sexual morality, a coalition of pro-family groups said.
"If pastors from pulpits speak either of the supremacy of biblical traditional marriage or speak of sexually alternative lifestyles in an unfavorable way, under this amendment they could be open to litigation," said William Devlin, president of the Urban Family Council, an inter-racial child and family advocacy group.
House Bill 1493, which likely will come up for a vote early next week, proposes to amend the state's Ethnic Intimidation Act to include "sexual orientation, gender or gender identity."
"Basically it's saying if you're sitting and you're hearing and you feel intimidated, you can sue," Devlin added.
The bill would empower people who consider themselves to be in a sexual minority, such as "gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, transvestite, pansexual and cross-dressers" to sue spiritual leaders who publicly espouse traditional views on sexuality, he said.
The amendment, which has been sitting in the Legislature since June 2001, was voted out of committee Nov. 12 by a 15-5 margin. The Pennsylvania Senate passed the bill last year by a 32-15 vote.
If the bill passes the House and Gov. Mark Schweiker signs it - as he has pledged to do - Pennsylvania will join 26 other states and the District of Columbia in extending hate crimes legislation to homosexuals. It will be the fifth state to include "gender identity" in those protections.
The bill has broad bipartisan support. Its proponents include Republican House Majority Leader John Perzel and Stewart Greenleaf, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Steve Miskin, a spokesman for Perzel, said the majority leader intended to vote for the measure, which could come up for a vote as early as Monday.
"He intends to support it," Miskin said. "I'm inclined to think it will pass, but there will be some people trying to amend it to death," he said.
Stacey Soebel, executive director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Civil Rights in Philadelphia, said concerns that the amendment could be used to silence people of faith were unfounded. %hool sex education class, "it belongs in pre-school." Her vile vision provided inspiration for the creation of Daddy's Roommate and Heather Has Two Mommies, storybooks used in New York City and elsewhere to indoctrinate young children in the homosexual worldview.
It is quite possible that someday, perhaps soon, it may be a crime form anyone to oppose homosexuality. The Bible will eventually be designated as "hate literature," and preachers will be accused of "hate crimes" for condemning the practice from their pulpits. Parents will be forbidden to teach their children to abhor homosexuality. Chalmette Middle School has already forbidden their students from bringing their Bibles to school to read during free time. A student told me that if they are caught with it, they would be suspended and the book will be confiscated.
America has already begun to consider the Bible as hate literature; it just hasn't reached our law books yet.
[We will watch H.B. 1493 and let you know if it is passed.]
posted on 08/02/2003 2:55:28 AM PDT
None of my Reps were involved in the Introduction of the Bill but I'm still wondering if they voted in favor of it. Also wondering which State Senators voted for this. I'll keep searching on the net but it may come down to contacting their offices to find out.
posted on 08/02/2003 3:01:37 AM PDT
Chalmette Middle School has already forbidden their students from bringing their Bibles to school to read during free time. A student told me that if they are caught with it, they would be suspended and the book will be confiscated.
...this is illegal! Jay Seculo would have a field day w/this school. I remember back in about '76, my brother brought his Bible to school to read at lunch and other "free" times. They tried to forbid him, but God bless his courage and faith, he didn't obey, and he continued to bring it to school and carry it w/his other books. Back then, it wasn't clear to the teachers as to the law. But today, it should be VERY clear - it's not illegal to have a Bible in school if it's for your own personal reading time. Good night, what's the world coming to?
posted on 08/02/2003 3:25:39 AM PDT
Do you think that the recent "diversity" and "ethnic intimidation" changes in law in the US might be a result of our participation in things like this International Commission of Jurists
, which is a part of the International Court of Justice
? If you read the Jurists' "Programme" page, you may start to wonder.........:
The most pressing concern in the legal fight for the promotion and protection of human rights is the inadequate incorporation of international human rights standards into national legislation and case-law. In response, the ICJ's National Implementation Programme aims to assist in the national implementation of international human rights standards both through direct monitoring and the provision of expert technical assistance.
In addition, the ICJ's National Implementation Programme also encompasses the activities of the ICJ's Center for the Independence of Judges and Lawyers (CIJL). The CIJL was established in 1978 to safeguard the independence of judges and lawyers and protect them from attacks and harrassment. The core work of the CIJL is to promote international standards relating to the need for an independent and impartial tribunal and to ensure that Governments implement these standards in their legislation and practice.
However, national implementation is inevitably subject to social, political and technological realities and the interdisciplinary challenges presented by other branches of international law. In response, the ICJ's Evolving Law Programme aims to add precision to exisiting human rights standards, to clarify the interaction between human rights standards and other branches of international law, and to propose new international standards where required.
BTW out of 60 Commissioners from all over the world, 2 are from the US.
Also, even though the US has been vocal and proud about not participating in the ICC, they've been in the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for decades!
The International Commission of Jurists specializes in human rights laws, such as ethnic intimidation type cases.
**** NOTE the verbage from their Programme page above:****
"to ensure that Governments implement these standards in their legislation and practice."
posted on 08/02/2003 3:53:36 PM PDT
The words used in the bill are ambiguous (at least as ambiguous as many judges currently hold the Constitution, calling it a "living document.")
There's a WIDE interpretation as to what these words mean:
1. Intimidation (in the title of the bill "Ethnic Intimidation")
2. Offense (and yes despite your comment "There is nothing in the law about "offending" people," the very first word in the bill is "OFFENSE", and later in "he commits an offense..."
3. Perceived (as in "perceived race")
6. Motivated by Hatred - now who can get into my head and tell me whether I committed a crime out of hatred or not (or insanity, or malice, or stupidity, or accident, or whatever)?
posted on 08/13/2003 4:34:41 AM PDT
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