'Intelligent design' theory threatens science classrooms

Seattle Post Intelligencer ^ | 11/22/2002 | ALAN I. LESHNER

[Stultis]

>>> Scientists use the word "observation" rather than "fact."

You're kidding. An observation can be so subjective.

Exactly. The objective element is the real universe itself. Reality is always the final arbiter. Therefor even a scientific fact, which might be defined as a well confirmed observation (i.e. careful and qualified observers agree about it), is subject to revision. The observations we make can be in error, or we can fail to account for artifacts steming from the instrumentations and techniques that mediate them. Testing observations (and theories) against an objective reality provides a means of finding out errors and improving knoweldge.

[JesseShurun]

well what you say has to be proven true. So if you happydog, are telling me, Jesse, that you have "seen" a lizard with wings turn into a bird, you are going to have to get some proof to make me believe that you are a prophet.

[happydogdesign]

So if I said I saw a seven headed beastie and beware of the number 444, you wouldn't believe me

[connectthedots]

Yep, science should be taught in the science class, NOT religious dogma

So when are they going to kick evolutiomn out of the classroom.

[JesseShurun]

well what are your credentials to be a prophet? what kind of prophet are you? If you prophesy the coming of John Barleycorn, sure I believe you

[happydogdesign]

What were John's credentials?

[Stultis]

Evolution via a left wing bolshevik monopoly reversed everthing into a technocracy

Yes, it did. But the Soviet Union -- which under Stalin actually suppressed darwinian theories of evolution in favor of the lamarkian versions that the left has always preferred -- is no more. Praise God!

Now will you please stop posting the dictionary and take your meds?

[JesseShurun]

he was a disciple of Christ's, an apostle

[happydogdesign]

I thought there was considerable doubt as to whether the author of revelations was actually the apostle John or a different person

[RadioAstronomer]

BTW, after looking back on my posts, I was the one that was rude. I should never have stepped into your conversation. Please accept my public apology.

[JesseShurun]

John lived on Patmos for quite a long time and he had a large number of people exiled there with him, scribes and teachers and others. The Revelation that you are thinking of, is not a mish mash of craziness and weird creatures, but is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything in it is fully understood when one has a knowledge of the Old Testament and it is not incomprehensible as many of the unlearned will have you to believe. It is full of symbolism, yes, but there is a key to understanding all of it. The trick is to get the key, and simple a trick it is, though not all find it

[JesseShurun]

not a problem, Aric and I have played hare and hounds before, you are forgiven, go forth and singe no more

[RadioAstronomer]

Thank you!

[ApesForEvolution]

Religion is worthless, which is why you prefer it to born again Christians with dunamos!

[Dimensio]

If your argument is based on the English language having no meaning then dog fire train assimilate callipygous, my friend.

That'll put Marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo!

[Dimensio]

I have never ever seen a lizard lay a birds egg and I doubt I ever will.

Given that evolution does not predict that this would happen (and in fact this happening would present serious problems for evolution), I don't quite understand why you bring it up.

If evolution were real science it would have been with us a lot longer than 125 years to be sure.

Wow. I guess that relativity isn't real science either, nor is anything else that came about since evolution theory, since it wouldn't be more than 125 years older either. Here's a free clue: age does not determine whether or not a theory is scientific.

I have never seen even one transitional form yet.

That's either because you refuse to look or you refuse to accept answers that contradict your worldview.

I have seen a feww skeletons of a bird called archeoptrix ( I know I spelled that wrong), but I think it is an extinct bird.

Yes, well, the labels applied to it by scientists are based upon actual observations of the fossils, not what you "think".

I know the dodo bird is also extinct too.

Yes, it is. It happened as a result of a rapid shift in their environment for which they could not adapt quickly enough. What's your point?

Because a creature once lived and is now extinct does not prove it somehow is a transitional form though

And no one has made this claim. Do you have any other strawmen to offer?

Birds and lizards and humans all have keratin. I would wager it is because they all have a common designer.

That you can define your alleged "designer" to fit within observed facts is not evidence for the existence of your designer.

[Junior]

An observation can be so subjective.

Welcome to the world of peer review. Others have to make the same observation for it to be accepted. Scientists do not deal in "facts" and will never use that word. They'll say, "we observe an object accelerates as it falls," not "it's a fact that an object accelerates as it falls" -- because there is always the possibility that an object, in some cases, may not accelerate as it falls.

[Bellflower]

Eric2000, for evolution to be true there should be countless transitional fossils for every fully arrived creature fossil not the other way around. Doesn't your theory say that it took many, many mutations and much survival of the fittest in order for one species to progress into a different more evolved specie. There would have to be coutless fossils of many odd creatures on their way to becoming a species that just didn't make it. Creatures with stubs for wings and partially formed eyeballs, creatures with all kinds of odd combinations and things we would never have imagined existing. Where are the these countless failures that should be overabundunt in supply compared to the few that actually made it?

[PatrickHenry]

Missed about 400 posts during the night. I assume it's okay to resume here without catching up on the treasures posted while I slept.

[Junior]

I don't think we missed much. There are a bunch of posts on John of Patmos, and trips to Turkey. Of course, the usual suspects are posting nonsensical images in an effort to drive the thread into the Smokey Back Room.