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Evolution through the Back Door
Various | 6/15/2003 | Alamo-Girl

Posted on 06/15/2003 10:36:08 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl

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To: MHGinTN; f.Christian
It's clear you two either can't correctly state the Second Law, or you two are deliberately misstating it to concoct straw men.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to "closed systems". Living forms are capable of reducing entropy within them simply because they are "open systems" and can thus export entropy to their environment. No circularity, no magic.

221 posted on 06/17/2003 1:52:54 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: betty boop
Does this then necessarily mean that because evolution cannot find the answer to these questions, then no answer can be found? And thus, we are to assume that, because we can't find the answers, then the questions do not make sense at all? So don't ask them?

Of course not. We are still far from a full understanding of biological structure and function, something that is beyond the limits of evolutionary theory, let alone the larger questions that are implied by what we do know.

222 posted on 06/17/2003 1:54:34 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: tortoise
Thank you so much for sharing your views of all the source experts I used!

On Yockey, are your complaints in reference to his book "Information Theory and Molecular Biology" or something else? The second edition is due out next February.

223 posted on 06/17/2003 1:54:43 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
Okay, I admit it. I tried to falsify the 2nd ... but I'm totally honest with the fifth.
224 posted on 06/17/2003 1:57:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: f.Christian
Okay, partner, the jig is cooked, er, they've cook our jig ... er, the cat died out of the bag ... anyway, better confess now. They tortured our collusion out me! The second Law of Thermodynamics is safe for another day.
225 posted on 06/17/2003 2:00:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: No Dems 2004
Evolution is simply incompatible with the Biblical account of creation.

Ah! A true statement. Of coursre, the Biblical account of Creation is wrong, but everyone knows this already.

226 posted on 06/17/2003 2:12:59 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: js1138; Alamo-Girl; Phaedrus; Nebullis; tortoise; PatrickHenry; Ten Megaton Solution
I think that "selection as causation" is the central concept invented by Darwin. The details have increased dramatically in number and complexity over the years, but the central insight remains.

Selection as causation -- no problem with that concept! Still, I suspect that only that which is "selectable" is, er, "causable." Perfect randomness appears to be somehow constrained. In a way, it is constraint -- what Aristotle called limit -- that gives things their "shape," or "whatness," for however long that "shape" may persist. "Shaped things" may evolve -- but it seems to me, only within certain tolerances. Thinking thusly, you can probably see why I would have a problem accepting the doctrine of abiogenesis -- that life "evolved" from non-life, that consciousness could have evolved from, not the unconscious, but the nonconscious. The "mystery principle" that could bridge such an unliklihood seems not to have been found yet. I suspect it's not there to be found....

Perhaps the dramatically burgeoning number of details and their seeming complexity may arise, to some degree, because people expect perfect randomness, where randomness in actuality is constrained in some fashion? Perhaps if people would understand that, a reduction in details and their apparent complexity would follow? Natural law seems to have a strong affinity with simplicity and elegance; when this is lacking, perhaps we ought to speculate that we haven't found our "fugitive" law yet, that the simplest, irreducibly fundamental, most comprehensive explanation for the phenomena we see all around us eludes us still....

The odd thought occasionally strikes me: Perhaps from a vantage point outside our own dimensional time/space, what looks to us like perfect chaos views as perfect order....

Which gets us into physical laws -- which constrain. But constrain -- for what purpose? And if there is purpose -- what is the goal, the end in view? And who's end is it anyway?

Thanks for chatting with me, js1138, and indulging me in my little speculations.

227 posted on 06/17/2003 2:15:13 PM PDT by betty boop (When people accept futility and the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. -- Jacques Barzun)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Wow. I read about half, I'll have to come back and finish the rest later.

A lot of this is way over my head but still very interesting.

I'm curious, what is your background?
228 posted on 06/17/2003 2:16:59 PM PDT by Z10N157
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for another great post!

The odd thought occasionally strikes me: Perhaps from a vantage point outside our own dimensional time/space, what looks to us like perfect chaos views as perfect order....

I agree!

229 posted on 06/17/2003 2:24:20 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Z10N157
Thank you so much for the kudos and encouragements!

WRT your question, I consider myself nothing of importance.

230 posted on 06/17/2003 2:26:13 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Well surely you have a PhD or two?

I'm a relatively new Christian, saved a little less then a year ago but I've allways been intrigued by the kinds of questions considered in your article and it is wonderfull to see them addressed intelligently from a Christian perspective.

I look forward to finishing it! :)
231 posted on 06/17/2003 2:33:02 PM PDT by Z10N157
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To: Alamo-Girl
According to Sir Karl Popper, when given two theories an experiment will decide one true and one false.

This is not Popper's position. He held that observations can disprove (or undermine) a theory, but that they cannot prove a theory. Scientists will gain increased confidence in a theory that has survived many attempts at "falsification" (the term Popper used) but such confidence building results can never eliminate the possibility (or even, in any strict, calculable sense, effect the probability) that the theory in question may fail some future test. In short Popper held that there was no valid method of "verification" with respect to scientific theories.

You seem to have in mind what is often called a "crucial experiment". This is a test in which two or more competing theories make clearly different and incompatible predictions about the outcome of some experiment or observation. Assuming a number of things -- e.g. that the predictions are correctly deduced from each theory, that there are no false premises in the (inevitable) extra-theoretical assumptions implicated in these deductions, and similarly that the experimental results do not include any unrecognized artifacts -- then, yes, at least one theory (and maybe more than one!) will be "falsified," but this does not mean that the other (unfalsified) theory has been decided to be "true". It just means it has survived a test where it might have been falsified.

232 posted on 06/17/2003 2:37:18 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Alamo-Girl
This looks great. There is much to read and think about with this thread. Bump for later reading. Thanks.
233 posted on 06/17/2003 2:38:16 PM PDT by coffeecup
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To: Z10N157
Thank you so much for your kind words! Indeed, Christ is the education our life depends on. I look forward to your comments. Hugs!!!
234 posted on 06/17/2003 2:40:04 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Stultis
Thank you so much for your post! Indeed, general_re has pointed out much of this. The Popper excerpts are at post 47 and a reword is suggested at 66. Please let me know what you think!
235 posted on 06/17/2003 2:43:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: PatrickHenry
Have you read Deutsch?
236 posted on 06/17/2003 2:43:42 PM PDT by jayef
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To: coffeecup
Thank you so much for the encouragements! I look forward to your comments. Hugs!!!
237 posted on 06/17/2003 2:44:21 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
In the end, the layperson such as I am, must remember that all of these theories emanating from the historical sciences may be the result of a committee, a group-think.

Obviously, you've never been to a scientific conference. It's no different in the "historical" sciences than in any other field. There are always plenty of colleagues ready and eager to ripe your theory to shreds.

238 posted on 06/17/2003 2:45:33 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
Thank you so much for your insight! Indeed, they are known for aggressive debate. Nevertheless, there is a culture among the academia that has a great deal to do with referrals, grants, publication, endorsement and the ilk.
239 posted on 06/17/2003 2:51:21 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Nebullis
Evolution is biology

Uh, not really. It may be the study of biology, or a theory to try to explain biology, but it is most definitely NOT biology.

240 posted on 06/17/2003 3:01:10 PM PDT by SirAllen
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