Scientists find a way for religion to exist even if humanity didn't (more darwinist babbling)

If the main tenet of darwinism is reproductive success, why do we still have homosexuals and lesbians?

Because in a tribal hunter-gather culture where family groups are of high importance, it is useful to have some extra adults who hunt and gather and care for children for the family unit (as aunts and uncles) but who do not have offspring of their own to draw upon resources.

Let's see now...a religionist wants to refute evolution because it produces something he will loudly declare tomorrow is a choice, not a genetic trait. Make up your mind.

How many bacteria would it take to type all the works of Shakespeare?

I believe in God, and don't see any contradiction at all between holding that belief and accepting the mechanism of evolution at the same time.

Perhaps there is a scientific basis for disputing and maybe even ultimately discarding Darwinian theory. I can't say, since I am hardly up on current scienfific debate on tbe subject. But if Darwin is ultmately rejected by the mainstream scientific community, I'm sure that any replacement theory will embrace some type of natural mechanism rather than a supernatural one.

I think your characterization of "Darwinian babbling" arises more from your desire to have the Genesis story be true, than from any willingness to apply or accept the scientific method.

Whether or not the Genesis story is true (which I do not believe), certainly it is not scientific. And we are talking about science here.

Science and our own real-life experience demonstrates every day that the universe unfolds according to consistent -- if not completely understood -- laws of nature.

The creation and purpose of these underlying laws are, in my belief, where we we should look for a glimpse of God's hand in the creation of the universe -- not in the Garden of Eden.

Even if one could successfully make a valid scientific case for an alternate theory of the development of life in the universe, that still would not give one ounce of weight to the Genesis theory.

Ultimately, only God will ever know whether Genesis accurately portrays the true origin of life. But if it does, then it will prove to be His ultimate practical joke on humanity, and very much out of the character He shows us every day. Because everything else that exists in universe comes into being via some natural process, which science will eventually come to understand.

But the existence of our physical universe, including the greatest miracle of all -- the birth of a human child -- is not made any less divine by virtue of that fact.

This finally explains why most aliens Cpt. Kirk encountered were so... human-like. Until now I thought it was because of the writer's lack of imagination or producer's lack of funds.

Apart from the role of God and the predictability of evolution, the magazine says
the main unsolved questions of evolution include how life first evolved on Earth
in such a hostile environment, how mutations lead to evolution and how new
species are formed.

Translation:
Give us more public money for lots of tenured chairs in evolution so we can spend
time doing lots of thought experiments and ridiculing moral constructs.
Even the ones that benefit hard-core Darwinists.

To: AmericanAge a theory that says animals like wolves turned into whales

rwp ...

Straw man.

A primitive carnivore begat another, which begat another, and another, and over a few million begats, eventually the offspring was a whale. There are obvious differences between offspring and their parents in just a single generation. Impose changes of that order a few million times over, and you can't forsee a large increase in body mass, alteration of a few limbs, etc?

262 posted on 05/08/2003 12:48 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor

eventually ... the offspring --- was a whale.

Religion can also be seen in a more positive light, a way of making people feel part of a group.

This is close to the definition of religion.

Aside from that, religion has nothing to do with evolution on the material plane.

To: Stop Legal Plunder

slp ...

Because evolution claims, via "natural selection" (in deliberate contrast to God's choice) to account for the development and characteristics of all kinds of life, including humans, it claims to account for the character traits that recognize beauty, love, morality and the like. So to be a viable system, evolution must either explain how these things evolved or, alternatively, why they're just fancies in our heads, having no correspondence with objective reality.

rwp ...

You're begging several questions here. The first one is that beauty, love and morality are entirely consequences of the biological structure of humans. That is certainly unproven; many would argue they're cultural constructs. Morevoer, once humans started to become capable of a culture, sometime in the evolution of the primates, the culture itself affected their evolution. For example, it's entirely likely once we started singing, women started having inordinate amounts of sex with musicians (still happens). Thence developed a dynamic whereby ever more complex musical abilities were selected for. Even without human intelligence, the same sort of evolution of complex 'aesthetic' behavior is seen in songbirds.

Fidelity, kindness etc. may similarly have been selected for as being more favorable to the raising of children. Those may be universal and innate human traits. If you can find a universal moral code that goes beyond very simple ideas such as 'thou shalt not kill', 'thou shalt not steal', you've certainly found something that's escaped the anthropological community.

271 posted on 05/07/2003 11:03 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

something that's ... escaped --- the anthropological community.

fc...

A lot (( logic // sanity )) has escaped the anthropological community.

Main Entry: an·thro·pol·o·gy
Pronunciation: "an(t)-thr&-'pä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin anthropologistogia, from anthrop- + -logia -logy
Date: 1593
1 : the science of human beings; especially : the study of human beings in relation to distribution, origin, classification, and relationship of races, physical character, environmental and social relations, and culture
2 : theology dealing with the origin, nature, and destiny of human beings

- an·thro·po·log·i·cal /-p&-'lä-ji-k&l/ adjective
- an·thro·po·log·i·cal·ly /-ji-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- an·thro·pol·o·gist /"an(t)-thr&-'pä-l&-jist/ noun

2 : theology dealing with the origin, nature, and destiny of human beings

Not the material nature of the animal, but the mental nature, the thing that makes us human. Religion deals with humanity's social aspects, which construct evolves into the pure mental sphere we shall inhabit sometime--the Teilhard noosphere or intermediate Freud super-ego. Sometimes religious references are made to the material phase of evolution to explain the evolution of mind, but otherwise, material evolution plays no part in religion.

rwp ...

That's a historical accident, dating from when science was known as natural philosophy. It's an anachronism. As science has progressed, and philosophy has vortexed down into its own navel, the idea that philosophy somehow includes science is ever more untenable.

Hardly any science textbook at the college level even mentions philosophy. Virtually no published scientific papers cite a single philosophical reference. Not much of a cornerstone.

fC ...

Anarchy <== undernatural speculation - DENIAL - knowledge (( philosophy )) - technology // SCIENCE ==> design !

Evolution is groundless -- no philosophical or technical foundation !

As EVOLUTION * * (( science )) has progressed,

and philosophy (( science // civilization )) * * has vortexed down into its own navel,

the idea that philosophy somehow ... EXCLUDES * * --- (( includes )) science

is ever more untenable.

... * * ... my additions !

To put it another way, the main tenent of Darwinism is that the unfit reproduce with less succes than the fit.

Some are less fit than others due to chance; but it takes a long time (by the measure of a human life time) to weed out an unfit characteristic from the gene pool. Give it another 100,000 years so to find out; we are still a young species.

-CW.

In 1687 Newton published "Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy.'

Nature and nature's laws lay hid in the night.
God said: "Let Newton be"; and all was light.
-Alexander Pope

Ping.

"It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."

Daniel and the Coming King

Chapter 16

The Gospel In Daniel 9:24

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"It would be tragic if we contented ourselves with an analytical examination of this passage of Scripture. It is not merely a scintillating gem to be admired, but the bread of life to be eaten. It consists of 'the everlasting gospel' in minature."

"That which should concern us all the more than the issues of hermeneutics is the issue of life---our life. Not minutiae of prophetic interpretation, but sin, sorrow, and death constitute our problems. Daniel 9:24 assures us that the world is a ship and not an iceberg, that God is intensely interested in our dilemma, and, best of all, that He has done something to extricate us from the apparent cul-de-sac of existence. In Christ, the Melchizedekan King-Priest, He has brought in everlasting righteousness, freely offered to all who believe."

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"Sir Isaac Newton, the greatest of scientists prior to the modern period, wrote a commentary upon the prohecies of Daniel and Revelations. He desribed Daniel 9:24-27 as "the foudation-stone of the Christian religion" because centuries in advance it gave the time of appearance of the Messiah and His death, as well as a comprehensive description of His saving work in heaven and earth. The prophecy likewise tells what would be the fate of the Jews consequent upon their rejection of the One whose coming they had long anticpated. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, foretold in Daniel 9:24-27, was history's testimony that the offerings and services of the sanctuary had met their fulfillment in the advent of the promised Messiah."

Newton, Isaac. Observsations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalpse of St. John. London: J. Darby and T. Browne, 1733 (Isaac Newton)

Chrystalk ...

"All of this while the book itself says it is sealed up, and never will be understood until the End of Days --- which we are living in ... "

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

by Dr.Desmond Ford @ ... GNU (( link )).

Seal Up the Vision

"The expression 'to seal up the vision' (v.24) should be considered. This expression, 'the vision', occurs eleven times in Daniel 8:1 to 10:1, and in all these cases it refers to the vision described in the eighth chapter of Daniel. The reader is advised to read again the entire passage. In pictorial, symbolic form the prophet was shown the unfolding of all future centuries till the second advent of Christ. The famous empires, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, which long oppressed the people of God, are described; but particular emphasis is given to the persecution of the church during the Christian era and also to the supremacy of the couterfeit, apostate religion over most of that period. Christ's mediatorial ministry in heaven is alluded to, but its eclipse from men's mind through a counterfeit system is fortold. The sanctuary mentioned refers both to the church temple indwelt by the Holy Spirit on earth, as well as Israel's typical sanctuary. No doubt Daniel was dazed by this revelation of the apparent triumph of evil. In his lifetime he had witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem's temple, the center of true religion, and the carrying into captivity of the people of God by an idolatrous and desolating nation. Now in vision he is informed that this state of affairs is to continue on a much greater scale throughout most of the earth's history. It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."

"Now in the revelation of 9:24-27 the mourning seer is told that there is a greater Prince of the house of Judah, a greater atonement, a greater sanctuary, and a greater redemption than any ever before experienced by Israel. The long-awaited Messiah, the Prince, a Priest-King, will take away the sin of the world and end earth's dark night. Thus 9:24 and 8:14 point to the same reality---the kingdom of God ignaugurated at the first advent and consummated at the second."

ABIOGENESIS

That slow process by which living organisms were spontaneously generated from non-living matter. This scientific fact should not be confused with the old discredited myth of spontaneous generation by which it was once foolishly believed that living organisms arose from non-living matter. (see Law of Biogenesis).

A.C.L.U.

An organization that zealously protects our American civil liberties by preventing students in public schools from considering scientific evidence that is either consistent with creation or critical of evolution.

BIG BANG

The mechanism, or at least the noise, by which all matter and energy came into existence billions of years ago.

BIOLOGY

The branch of the exact sciences which is exclusively concerned with the evolution of living organisms by means of random mutations and natural selection.

DROSOPHILA

The "guinea pig" of the evolutionist to which we all owe a debt of gratitude for our understanding of the role of mutations in evolution. Trillions of generations of these rapidly breeding little flies have had their wings crumpled and their eyes damaged by strong mutagenic agents to provide us with a genetic insight into how man evolved from the prehominid brutes in a few thousand generations.

EVOLUTION

A truly perfect scientific theory which explaims in detail how everything in the universe came into being -- slowly. The theory of evolutions is so perfect and flexible in its ability to explain virtually all observable phemomena or opinions that it would be impossible to even conceive of an experiment capable of disproving it. (see Law).

GEOLOGIC COLUMN

A precise hierarchy of fossilized animals and plants of known age found in successive layers of stratified rock with the simplest and oldest at the bottom and the most highly evolved, i.e., most recent, at the top. Uninterrupted columns of this type may be found in any book of geology, paleontology or evolution. Bits and pieces of the column may even be found in the stratified rocks of the earth, but since these layers are often out of correct order and very incomplete, one should study the geologic column in books, not nature.

HOPEFUL MONSTER THEORY

A concept first introduced out of necessity by the geneticist, Richard Goldschmidt, which states that evolution occurs by sudden and large changes in the offspring of a species resulting in radically different but well adapted organisms, i.e. "hopeful monsters." After being widely discredited for many years this idea is being reintroduced, out of necessity, as a serious theory. The great leaps forward implicit in this theory entirely account for the absence of the "missing links." (See Punctuated Equilibrium)

INDEX FOSSILS

Fossils of animals whose ages are precisely known from the age of the rocks in which they are found, thus, serving as a means for accurately dating the rocks in which they are found as well as the age of any other fossils that may be contained therein.

LAW

In science, a statement of fact about a sequence or phenomenon that has been invariably observed to occur under known conditions such as, for example, the theory of evolution. (see Evolution).

LAW OF BIOGENESIS

Simply states the obvious...that all life comes from pre-existing life. This law, which was confirmed by Redi and Pasteur, permanently laid to rest the ludicrous idea of the ignorant ancients that living organisms could spring from inanimate matter. It should be emphasized that this law in no way precludes the slow origin of living organisms from inanimate matter through the process of evolution - after all, we are here, aren't we? (see Abiogenesis).

LIFE

The only term in this dictionary that defies definition since it has been said that "the division of matter into living and nonliving is perhaps an arbitrary one. It is a convenient method for distinguishing, for instance, a man from a rock." (quoted verbatim from The Origins of Life, by Cyril Ponnamperuma, 1962, H. P. Dutton, New York, p. 36).

MICROSPHERES

Primitive cells which have been artificially synthesized from simple laboratory reagents. As the name implies, the principal similarity between microspheres and living cells is that both are small and sort of round.

MISSING LINKS

An inconceivably vast assemblage of plants and animals which are intermediate in their evolutionary development between all of the discrete kinds of plants and animals one sees either alive or in the fossil record. Unfortunately as the name implies they are missing.

MUTATIONS

A change in the genetic material (DNA) of the cell induced by hazardous chemicals or radiation which in addition to killing or maiming organisms will, given enough time and enough mutations, inexorably lead some organisms on to an ever more successful and adaptive life.

NATURAL SELECTION

That miraculous process by which incredibly complex and useful structures, such as the eye or brain, are culled out from a vast array of random and purposeless mutations. In the distant past this marvelous natural artificer has produced the whole scope of existence from molecules to man but today it appears to be limiting its activities to such mundane matters as controlling the relative numbers of white and black moths in England.

NEO-DARWINIAN EVOLUTION

An embellishment of the old Darwinian theory of evolution, it states that random changes (mutations) in the genome of an organism will be selected for, and thus contribute to the evolution of the new species, only if they ultimately lead to a greater number of offspring. Thus, an ever-increasing rate of reproduction entirely accounts for the evolution from bacteria to man.

ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES PHYLOGENY

A law first discovered by Ernst Haeckel which if pronounced correctly and with conviction, impresses laymen and students of science in the elementary grades. Simply stated, and thus less convincingly, it means that the embryos of all animals bother to provide a historical review of many stages of their evolution during their embryological development. Although this type of reminiscing is touching and is taught in almost every general science and biology text book, it is no longer accepted by scientists or even evolutionists.

PHYLOGENETIC TREE

A tree that grows mainly in textbooks of biology and which has a variety of both contemporary and fossil animals perched on the tips of its branches. This tree clearly shows how all of these animals branched off from common ancestors a long time ago. For some reason the common ancestors are never shown sitting in the crotches of the tree. Plants presumably grow on different trees which are rather rare.

PILTDOWN MAN

Once known by all true scholars of human evolution to be an ancient ancestor of man. This true "ape man" had the jaw of a modern ape and the skull of a modern man. Today this ape-man is not so well known among true scholars of evolution.

PRIMITIVE

Old, inferior, poorly adapted, less evolved, shoddy, bungling.

PROOF

The assimilation of data in such a way that the desired conclusion seems to be the most plausible hypothesis.

PROTOZOA

As the name implies, these are known to be the first true animals on earth. If these primitive organisms had continued to adapt to their changing environment they might still be with us today.

PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM

An ad hoc hypothesis or alibi that claims the reason there are no known transitional forms in the fossil record is because evolutionary changes occur so quickly and the reason we can't see evolutionary changes in the laboratory is because they occur so slowly. (see Hopeful Monster Theory).

RADIOCARBON DATING

A remarkably precise method of actually measuring the age of any carbon-containing sample. Except for certain spurious (young) dates, radiocarbon, like other methods involving the decay of radionuclides will, given several absolutely safe assumptions, invariably indicate a ripe old age for any specimen consistent with a slow process of evolution.

SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS

One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble). We may be sure, however, that the mind-boggling increase in order, complexity and information accomplished by the evolution of chemicals to man in no way violates this law or it wouldn't have happened.

SELECTIVE PRESSURE

That natural and highly selective pressure that actually forces particularly useful structures such as brains, eyes, legs, wings and long necks on giraffes to evolve by random mutations. Unnecessary structures such as eyelids on your navel fail to evolve by chance because there is no selective pressure for this.

SPECULATION

The single most powerful tool in the hands of the evolutionists.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

The most important contribution of Darwin to biological thought which states that only those organisms which are fit survive, or in other words, survival is the result of being fit. By this kind of logic it can also be proven that loss of vision is a principal cause of blindness.

THEISTIC EVOLUTION

The belief that the evolutionary account of origins (where everything ascends from a very imperfect state to a more nearly perfect state) and the Biblical account of origins (where everything descends from a perfect state to a very imperfect state) are both true.

TIME

That miracle ingredient which in sufficient quantity can give scientific credibility to any hypothesis no matter how improbable. It is a well- known axiom of science for example, that given enough time virtually anything is possible - indeed you might even say it has to happen.

TREE

That which only evolution can make. (see Phylogenetic Tree).

VESTIGIAL ORGANS

Organs or other body parts, left over from evolutionary ancestors, which are no longer used or needed by an organism that has become more highly evolved by abandoning organs and getting simpler. Seventy years ago man had nearly one hundred vestigial organs such as the parathyroid, tonsils, coccyx, etc., but today he has very few vestigial organs because a good use has been discovered for most of these organs.

XERDEMA PIGMENTOSA

A disease of man in which certain enzymes which normally repair mutations of DNA fail to do so resulting in malignant tumors of the skin which are often fatal. Since it is well known that mutations were essential for the evolution of man from primitive cells, we must assume that too much of even a good thing like mutations is bad for us.

390 posted on 06/11/2003 12:49 AM PDT by razorbak

This is one wucked-up thread. It's all yours.

Evolution doesn't care about hunter gatherer groups. I presume there are gay animals also; are they also hunter gatherers?

Please maintain authorship of your own thoughts and not attribute them to me. Any answer to the original question or do you want to make up some more stuff about me?