Enemy Within May Complicate War (Muslims 2% Of US Military)

Insight Magazine ^ | 4-9-2003 | Scott L. Wheeler

[so_real]

I don't care which invisible man in the clouds they worship - if they're in the American military, they'd better be ready to kill anyone who's threatening this country without hesitation, and without regard to race, religion, creed, color, sexual orientation, or choice of breakfast cereal.

"better be" and "paying them for" Those are the key phrases that you would risk the lives of our soldiers over. You are an idealist, and there is nobility in that. I am a realist. I know that no amount of training can prevent a soldier with deep theological convictions from hesitating when killing his bretheren. I know that no amount of pay can buy a soldier with deep theological convictions into killing his bretheren. (And, besides :-), the pay we offer our soldiers isn't all that grandiose anyway.) Count on an idealist to write good laws; count on a realist to enforce them.

[Drammach]

Let's see;
"touch a nerve" , "chip on your shoulder", "I'm certainly not a rascist", " you immeadiately assumed otherwise, and jumped down my throat",...

A bit sensitive to an opposing view, aren't we?

The Length of a Discourse is not necessarily indicative of Antipathy.

"There's no reason 8000 soldiers couldn't remain state-side when they have a pre-existing condition that could be a detriment to the success of the mission or the safety of the troops. We're setting a bad precident for future conflicts in allowing, even encouraging, those to serve who have conflicts of conscience."

Pre-existing condition?
You make it sound like a butt-rash..
Religious belief is not a "pre-existing condition". It is simply one's religious belief.
We have an all volunteer army. Anyone with "conflicts of conscience" is not forced to join.
Even when we had the draft, those with conflict of conscience could apply for deferred status.
(Consciencious Objectors)

That was your previous post. Now, let's get to the most recent response.

Jews to kill Jews, etc..
No, that doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't apply to the example I iterated, and is completely without merit.

Theology;
Theology IS a powerful dividing factor throughout the world. Catholicism vs. Protestantism, etc., but if the United States Military were to take religious beliefs into account for every military operation, we would never get anything accomplished.
We (the american military forces) do not exclude anyone on the basis of religion. It is unconstitutional to do so, even though we allow those conscientious objectors to exclude themselves if they wish.
Things would surely come to a screeching halt however, if the military were to start excluding based on religion.
Where did You get the idea that every muslim in the world, much less the United States, is a member of some terrorist group bent on our demise?
(never mind, it's thrown around FR constantly, I can't really blame You for forming such an opinion.)

Racism.
I swear to God, I never called you a racist, never even intimated it. ( I went back and re-read my post to be sure.) Yet, You accuse me of calling you one, and "jumping down your throat" for it.
Enough said, please do not make such an accusation again, do not even intimate it.

" If a known predisposition exists that can be easily controlled and may preserve the life of even a single soldier, why not act upon it?"

As I said previously, the one incident we know of involved a black soldier of muslim faith, but his act of murder had nothing to do with religion as far as I know.
He was disciplined for something, and denied duty at the front, and retaliated against his commander in a foul and indiscriminate manner.

By your previous posts, it would be safe to assume that his "known predisposition" is a belief in Allah..
Not, violent and sociopathic behaviour.

"Again, I mean no offense. Ultimately we are on the same side."

I meant no "offense" either, but find it quite interesting to see your "interpretation" of my response, especially all the "button-pushing" little comments interspersed throughout your post.
I merely disagreed with your opinion.
So, I guess in that context, we are NOT on the same side.

As a vietnam era veteran that spent 9 years in the U.S.Army, I never had any problems with any soldiers of the muslim faith.
They were there, and they were fairly new to the faith and to the army, and many were quite militant in their beliefs, but I was able to sit and speak with them concerning their beliefs without acrimony, and with mutual respect.
It's not like we spent all our time discussing religion, but it does come up.
Likewise, we spoke of civil rights, politics, food, women, literature, and a great many other things.
But we all understood, that in the field, we depended on each other, and we took pride in doing it right, and vying to be the best at what we did.

You do the American Soldier a dishonor when you imply that today's muslim or jewish or christian soldier would do any less.
When you imply such, you really have "touched a nerve", and really p*****d me off.

[so_real]

When you imply such, you really have "touched a nerve", and really p*****d me off.

Woah! Relax or you'll pop a vessel! We'll just have to agree to disagree. As patriots we live for "God and Country" and not the other way around. You'll not convince me that I dishonor our soldiers by offering they be spared the need to place Country before God. You'll not convince me that I dishonor our soldiers by being concerned for the safety of some in the field when others they rely upon are fighting, theologically, brother against brother. Obviously, I won't convince you of anything either. So, relax, it is what it is.

[kms61]

Well, to be historically accurate, if Custer had paid attention to his Scouts, there would have been no Little Big Horn. They tried to warn him, but he was too damn fool arrogant to listen to them.

[flamefront]

This may be likely to what nightdriver was referring:

From America Was A Christian Nation

By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

[flamefront]

Also see Gertz, U.S. fears attacks from Muslims in armed forces.

[flamefront]

Further: Bush nominating Daniel Pipes aggravates U.S. Muslims[He says Muslims in military must be watched]

[nightdriver]

"Why don't you also mention that ruling was overturned by the Supreme Court?"

I wasn't aware that this had happened. Do you have the date?

[Marysecretary]

Timothy McVeigh was no Christian. He turned his back on that a long time ago. Sorry.

[so_real]

Hello Marysecretary,

It's a pleasure to meet you. I would not say Timothy McVeigh was a Christian either. In fact, I believe he was an agnostic. In my post I was trying to fathom how Charley Chan (a freeper) had drawn a parallel between Benedict Arnold and (these are his words, not mine) a lily-white Christian McVeigh. I couldn't follow that thread of logic. Since that time, it appears Charley Chan's account has been revoked ... I guess I'll never understand that connection.

Anyway, on this point you and I certainly agree :-)

[Drammach]

From the article, last few lines..
Navy spokesman Cmdr. Tom Van Leunen said his branch had taken no additional security measures since the Kuwait incident.
"We view our sailors as Americans first, Americans with full religious freedom," he said. "We do not single out any religious group."
However, Cmdr. Van Leunen said, "We routinely train our officers, chiefs and petty officers to recognize significant behavioral changes in subordinates and to intervene on their behalf if necessary."
A Marine Corps spokesman said the Marines have not added any security or force protection measures in response to the grenade attack in Kuwait.
"The Marine Corps is built on shared group values. We draw strength from our diversity, but to the extent that any Marine would force personal beliefs on fellow Marines runs counter to the Corps' culture," Maj. Matt McLaughlin said.

As stated policy, this only supports what I said in post #22.

[so_real]

Thanks for the links to those articles - good reading. It's good to see that Military Intelligence is not naive to the threat.

[Marysecretary]

Nice to meet you, too, so_real. I'm not sure what McVeigh was. I think his family was Catholic. He was sure deceived at any rate. I'm sure he went to his grave hiding who was really behind that bombing. Well, at least that's ONE down.