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Peggy Noonan: Will America crumple at the sight of its own blood?
The Times (U.K.) ^ | 03/26/03 | Peggy Noonan

Posted on 03/25/2003 3:11:34 PM PST by Pokey78

The question on everyone's mind that nobody in the US can bear to discuss

It is a great unanswered question of the war and one we Americans don’t want answered. How much will America be willing to suffer? What kind of losses will America accept and absorb, if it comes to that?

It is on our minds, more so since the war has turned hard, but it’s not what Americans are discussing. The war has just begun; you don’t go on to the field at Gettysburg chattering about likely losses and the impact back home. You go in committed to the fight and confident of victory. To speak of possible high losses seems fear-mongering, alarmist, lacking in faith. No one in the United States has said the word bodybags since before the fighting began.

The world has for some time assumed that America cannot, or will not, accept widespread casualties if the fight proves brutal and bloody. President Saddam Hussein obviously thinks that with enough difficulties and enough deaths America will fold, as it did in Somalia and Lebanon, and retreat. And of course there was Vietnam.

The international assumption is that Vietnam showed that modern America is incapable of accepting heavy battlefield losses, no matter how just or legitimate the conflict. But this cliché demands examination. For ten years of the Vietnam War, from 1964 to 1974, America showed it could take bodybags — every day. Fifty thousand of them in all. I remember each Friday night on local TV they would show the high school photos of the New York area boys who died that week. They all had short hair, high cheekbones and big smiles, and it gave you a feeling of emptiness and disorder to see their pictures roll across the screen.

America did turn against the war and its ravages, but the reason was not only those pictures. America’s political leadership was badly split, and even those who championed the war’s prosecution spent its last years in desperate pursuit of a negotiated way out. One by one America’s parents decided that they weren’t going to let their son become the last American to die for an inadequate political settlement.

Bodybags were only part of the story. A lack of confidence in our leaders and growing ambivalence about the justice of our position were the other parts.

After Vietnam the American military establishment began to press for new preconditions of war. They would insist that political backing for any military action be real, clear and sustainable; that military planning include exit strategies in case of insupportable disaster; and that America go into any conflict with full and ferocious force. Thus the heavy bombing, the highly technologised fighting force, the highly trained specialists that we see on the news every night. (There is some debate about whether the initial US onslaught was full and ferocious enough. But after six days our troops are closing on Baghdad, which suggests the first moves were neither weak nor wet.)

The idea was that if you go in with overwhelming force, victory will beat the bodybags home. All of which is understandable as strategy; but it has also tended to support the assumption that Americans can’t take battlefield losses; that they’ve grown soft and unused to suffering; that ultimately they don’t want to pay a price.

What is the truth? The truth is no one knows. Those in the US Administration do not know. They can’t go to a mall and ask: “By the way, would a thousand deaths be all right with you? Would five thousand?” When Paul Wolfowitz was pushed by The New York Times, the Deputy Defence Secretary, a prime and early supporter of an invasion, said: “In the end, it has to come down to a careful weighing of things we can’t know with precision, the costs of action versus the costs of inaction, the costs of inaction now versus the costs of inaction later.”

The American people themselves are not sure exactly what as a nation they would be willing to sustain and accept. How could they be? It will be a day-by-day decision. And different parts of the country will likely offer different answers on different timetables. If you asked the question, “What kind of losses can America accept?” down South, where Americans are both sweeter and tougher, the answer might likely be, “Well it’s a war, and war is hell, and in war you gotta do what’s needed to be done.” That would probably be the consistent response from George Bush’s Republican base: we can take a lot to do what’s right. And those last four words — “to do what’s right” — are the key to the answer.

The novelist Tom Clancy, a great respecter of the military and appreciator of Americans, told me: “The American people are the same people they were in 1942.” We can take losses, he said, we are just as tough as ever. But “there has to be a good reason. The people will accept what’s necessary but not what isn’t.” Meaning the American people will suffer through and accept if they believe the war is needed and America’s position is right.

It may be that America will find out how high a price it is willing to pay to oust Saddam and pacify Iraq. Hopes for an end to war that comes sooner rather than later — and with minimal loss rather than maximum — continue, and with good reason. But it may be turning tough indeed, and the words Bloody Baghdad may be about to become famous.

My own hunch is that Americans are more patient, persevering and accepting of pain than we know. We found that out on 9/11, and we may be about to find it out again. But Americans are practical. They all know how to do a cost-benefit analysis. They will be patient, persevering and willing to absorb pain as long as they feel they can win and are winning. They will accept bodybags as part of the price of victory, but not for a second will they accept them if they start to see evidence of defeat.

The author is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal

Debate on this article at comment@thetimes.co.uk


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: handwringers; iraqifreedom; peggynoonan; peggynoonanlist
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1 posted on 03/25/2003 3:11:34 PM PST by Pokey78
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To: Howlin; Miss Marple; mombonn; Sabertooth; beckett; BlueAngel; JohnHuang2; *Peggy Noonan list; ...
Pinging Peggy's list.
2 posted on 03/25/2003 3:13:08 PM PST by Pokey78
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To: Pokey78
Twice in one week Peggy? To what do we own the pleasure?
3 posted on 03/25/2003 3:15:53 PM PST by WaveThatFlag
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To: Pokey78
She always ask questions like this when she doubts her own resolve. Of course Bush ain't gonna quit, and neither are the Republicans.
4 posted on 03/25/2003 3:16:55 PM PST by Porterville (Screw the grammar, full posting ahead.)
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To: Pokey78
She's right. We still have the right stuff in most Americans.
5 posted on 03/25/2003 3:16:56 PM PST by MEG33
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To: Porterville
Only if the are NE Rino's will they quit.
6 posted on 03/25/2003 3:20:32 PM PST by dts32041 (Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".)
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To: Pokey78
I heard a member of the military on
Rush Limbaugh today (didn't get the
guy's name) say that we can expect
70-to-90 percent casualties if we are
forced into urban warfare. "Casualties"
of course including wounded and dead.

I don't know if the general public
will stay behind this war if that happens.
I sure hope it doesn't happen, and I sure hope
that if it does, we do not make those
lives be lost for nothing by pulling out
(re: Somalia).

Anyone know if this 70-90 percent is
about the right number, or was this guy
way way off??

7 posted on 03/25/2003 3:20:52 PM PST by RaiderRose
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To: RaiderRose
Punditry will drive you mad.
8 posted on 03/25/2003 3:22:52 PM PST by MEG33
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To: MEG33
She's right. We still have the right stuff in most Americans.

9 out of ten Americans are for the most part a bunch of spoiled suburban toy poodles. Having the "right stuff" is not "Hoorahing" to have others go die for you because your politicians sit around getting bright ideas.

9 posted on 03/25/2003 3:23:09 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: RaiderRose
Lots of examples of urban warfare in WWII and Vietnam (Hue '68). Pretty dirty fighting and nowhere near these levels of casualties.

Most units are combat ineffective when they've taken 25-35%.
10 posted on 03/25/2003 3:23:23 PM PST by x1stcav (HooAhh!)
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To: RaiderRose
Anyone know if this 70-90 percent is about the right number, or was this guy way way off??

Rule of war #1 - Never try to predict a damn thing. Be ready for anything, anytime.

11 posted on 03/25/2003 3:24:43 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: Pokey78
Our willingness to fight to the death for something we believe in will send as strong a message to our enemies as victory itself. It has been painful to see our dead, wounded, and captured. Nonetheless, the high price they pay is purchasing a future for my children and grandchildren. I am extremely thankful for those who are living the hell of war.
12 posted on 03/25/2003 3:25:11 PM PST by Paraclete
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To: MEG33
70% of Americans support the. One quarter are opposed. By contrast, the Communist Party candidate received 31% of the vote in the last Russian Presidential election. Is Russia in danger of returning to communism? Of course not!!!
13 posted on 03/25/2003 3:28:59 PM PST by WaveThatFlag
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To: Paraclete
Hussein obviously thinks that with enough difficulties and enough deaths America will fold, as it did in Somalia,

Clinton is the one who lost his nerve after the "BlackHawk Down" battle in Somalia. He could not risk declining poll numbers caused by soldiers returning home in bodybags.By pulling out he made the deaths of our soldiers meaningless. What a creep.

14 posted on 03/25/2003 3:29:40 PM PST by lawdave
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To: Paraclete
Our willingness to fight to the death for something we believe in....

Our? Who's "our"? I'm assuming you have several family members on the front line.

God bless them and keep them safe.

15 posted on 03/25/2003 3:30:28 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: Pokey78
Yesterday, we captured a hospital which had been taken over by the enemy. We used bullhorns and told the medical people to leave and take the patients with them.

Then ... we went in and took over the hospital. We captured almost 200 people and their equipment. They even had a tank on the hospital grounds.

After we cleared the hospital, the medical staff and patients were told to go back into the hospital.

We could have just bombed the living poop out of the whole place and wasted the lives of civilians.

But ... we did it the right way and I believe this attitude will cause the civilians to rise up and help us.
16 posted on 03/25/2003 3:32:05 PM PST by CyberAnt
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To: CyberAnt
Fox News says they also found
3,000 chemical suits in that
hospital...funny...what would
they need chemical suits for
since they don't have any
chemicals??????

17 posted on 03/25/2003 3:33:56 PM PST by RaiderRose
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To: Porterville
Of course Bush ain't gonna quit, and neither are the Republicans.

No need really as they will surely be replaced come '04.

18 posted on 03/25/2003 3:37:15 PM PST by TightSqueeze (From the Department of Homeland Security, sponsors of Liberty-Lite, Less Freedom! / Red Tape!)
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To: Pokey78
Aahhhhhh.. I love Peggy.. She inspires me so...
19 posted on 03/25/2003 3:38:10 PM PST by Homeschoolmom
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To: Pokey78
The other thing about 9/11 is that we saw 3,000 murdered, as they went about their civilian business. It makes it a little easier to accept deaths among people who choose to put their life on the line, knowing that it's in order to help prevent another 9/11 from happening.

I don't know if the U.S. would have had a stomach for this before 9/11.
20 posted on 03/25/2003 3:40:59 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (No more will we pretend that our desire/For liberty is number-cold and has no fire.)
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