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When the shooting starts (Novak responds to Frum)
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | 3/24/03 | Robert Novak

Posted on 03/24/2003 7:27:47 AM PST by CoolGuyVic

When the shooting starts

March 24, 2003

BY ROBERT NOVAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

On the day after President Bush delivered his ultimatum, Patrick J. Buchanan stopped debating the war. The former presidential candidate and longtime adversary of the Bushes wrote that ''patriotism commands that when American soldiers face death in the battle, the American people unite behind them.'' On that very day, the country's foremost conservative publication listed Buchanan among ''leading figures in the anti-war movement [who] call themselves 'conservatives' '' but hate their country and want it to lose the war.

To my astonishment, I was among them. David Frum, a Washington journalist and White House speechwriter early in this Bush administration, put Buchanan and me on the top of the dishonor roll in ''Unpatriotic Conservatives: A War Against America,'' the cover story in the current edition of National Review.

We are accused of advocating ''a fearful policy of ignoring threats and appeasing enemies.'' Concluding, he writes of us: ''[T]hey are thinking about defeat, and wishing for it, and they will take pleasure if it should happen. They began by hating the neo-conservatives. They came to hate their party and this president. They have finished by hating their country.''

That demonstrably is not true of Pat Buchanan, and it is certainly not true of me. Anybody who makes a living by dispensing strong comment should be inured to attack, even when the accusations are totally false. During the nearly 40 years that I have been privileged to write this column, I have not subjected readers to my personal controversies. Now, however, I feel constrained to identify myself as a Korean War-vintage Army officer (non-combat) who has always supported our troops and prayed for their success during many wars. This war is no exception. Dealing with statements about me even so calumnious as Frum's might seem petty in time of war. But broader issues are at stake. Frum represents a body of conservative opinion that wants to delegitimize criticism from the right of policy that has led to war against Iraq.

Anti-war activity over the years has come mostly from the left. Those were not conservatives who shut down Times Square on Thursday. Senate Democratic Leader Thomas Daschle went over the line last Monday when he blamed potential American deaths on Bush's failed diplomacy, but he had regrouped by week's end to promise support of ''our troops and our commander-in-chief.''

Like Buchanan, Daschle ended up following the old American custom of supporting the war once the shooting starts. Frum, on the other hand, chose that moment to begin shooting at ''paleo-conservatives.'' He brackets me with his selected paleos--people whom I have never met or read and whose anti-Semitic and white supremacist views I abhor.

Frum cannot find any such statements ever uttered by me. Nor can he find anything I ever have said to indicate hatred for George W. Bush, much less my country. His article cites four quotations from my columns, one reporting that congressional sources predicted the CIA would be unable to find Osama bin Laden, and the other three criticizing an overly close identification of U.S. policy with Israel (especially the Ariel Sharon government). Implicitly, that is unacceptable criticism from a conservative.

''[E]ven Robert Taft and Charles Lindbergh ceased accommodating Axis aggression after Pearl Harbor,'' Frum writes. The implication: After 9/11, conservatives should have refrained from debating the Iraq strategy or questioning Israeli policy.

Nevertheless, Frum's mention of Lindbergh recalls the Lone Eagle's unhappy experience. Gulled by Hitler into regarding the Nazi thugs as saviors of Western civilization, Lindbergh was goaded by Franklin D. Roosevelt into resigning his colonel's commission in the Army Air Corps Reserve. Lindbergh sought active duty after Pearl Harbor but was blocked by a vindictive President Roosevelt. He managed to fly secret combat missions in the Pacific, however illegally, as a civilian. A newly naturalized American, Frum might ponder how Lindbergh handled himself once the shooting started.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antiwarright; davidfrum; novakfrum
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1 posted on 03/24/2003 7:27:47 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: CoolGuyVic
I haven't read Frum's column. Was he out of line? I've never thought of Novak as un-patriotic, just self-serving. Same with Buchanan.

bttt
2 posted on 03/24/2003 8:02:08 AM PST by Steel Eye
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Steel Eye
I haven't read Frum's column. Was he out of line?

Frum and his neocon buddies are never "out of line"...why they'll be the first to tell you that. They are tirelessly redefining conservatism to one of their liking, one that they find tolerable enough to defend at cocktail parties. Socially squishy, loveable, and painfully PoCo.
4 posted on 03/24/2003 9:23:57 AM PST by mr.pink
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To: Vic Mackey
He brackets me with his selected paleos--people whom I have never met or read and whose anti-Semitic and white supremacist views I abhor.

Exactly

6 posted on 03/24/2003 4:09:27 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Vic Mackey
Frum's piece was a well timed hit job that took a dozen right wing anti war writers and skeptics all with different philosophies, ideologies, and beliefs and linked them all together as Anti American racist (or left wing) nuts. Sickening guilt by association tactic used so often by the Clintonoids and the left in general. It is this tendency among (for lack of a better word) the Neocons to make personal attacks against the "paleos" or anti war right wingers rather than address their concerns or arguments that troubles me. And Frum's attack is the most disgusting. Questioning their patriotism for daring to object to this war? Last refuge of a scoundrel . . .
7 posted on 03/24/2003 4:18:15 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: CoolGuyVic
On the day after President Bush delivered his ultimatum, Patrick J. Buchanan stopped debating the war.

Yeah, AFTER penning his "J'Accuse" screed.

8 posted on 03/24/2003 4:19:28 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: Burkeman1
I agree. While I don't think they represent a direct threat- their actions do indirectly support our enemies and they should therefore be stopped with aggressive prosecution.
9 posted on 03/24/2003 4:21:16 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Poohbah
And how was "Whose War" answered? With a point by point refutation of the article? With rational counter arguments? Or was Buchanan himself attacked? He Was essentially called an anti semite and dismissed.

Fine- let's suppose that Pat has made some questionable statements in the past and could be called an anti- semite (though I believe he is not.) Are all anti war right wingers anti semites? Are all anti American? Is every argument they make motivated out of a secret hatred of Jews and wish to destroy this nation? That seems to be the argument from the "neocons" (a term used to sweepingly I admit).

It is the failure of the pro war right to respond to the actual arguments of the anti war right that troubles me.
10 posted on 03/24/2003 4:29:56 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
And how was "Whose War" answered? With a point by point refutation of the article? With rational counter arguments? Or was Buchanan himself attacked? He Was essentially called an anti semite and dismissed.

And thank you for outing yourself.

Pat was extensively Fisked on this site and others.

Are all anti war right wingers anti semites? Are all anti American? Is every argument they make motivated out of a secret hatred of Jews and wish to destroy this nation? That seems to be the argument from the "neocons" (a term used to sweepingly I admit).

A lot of them are. The rest merely lie down with dogs, and then wonder why they have fleas.

11 posted on 03/24/2003 4:33:00 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: Poohbah
Outing myself? Fisked?

A lot of them are. The rest merely lie down with dogs, and then wonder why they have fleas.

Well- I guess that satisfies you. You will excuse me if it doesn't satisfy me.

12 posted on 03/24/2003 4:37:40 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
"Fisking" is a term that arose from the practice of reading the stream-of-consciousness crapola that comes from Robert Fisk, and refuting him literally one sentence at a time.
13 posted on 03/24/2003 4:41:07 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: Poohbah
Ah- wild haired Fiske. My father saw him recently on TV and said he looked like a mental patient.
14 posted on 03/24/2003 4:47:12 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
Just wait until he shows up in Baghdad after the war, singing the praises of Saddam Hussein.

The locals will give him the Benito Mussolini treatment.
15 posted on 03/24/2003 4:48:53 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: CoolGuyVic
Gulled by Hitler...
Goaded by Franklin D. Roosevelt...


Poor old Lindbergh didn't have an original thought
in his poor old head, eh?  Sorry, Novak.  Your
softpedalling a Nazi sympathizer puts you on
the line that runs to Buchanan, then Sobran, then
David Duke.  The consistent criticism of Israel
over the years I wrote off .  But lately seeing under the
surface has been sickening and I regret it.  It's better
to know, though.
16 posted on 03/24/2003 6:39:12 PM PST by gcruse (Democrats are the party of the Tooth Fairy.)
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To: Vic Mackey; Burkeman1
Frum's screed is starting to unravel. It was a very sloppy tying together of very different people with very different views. Frum's attack was more a matter of emotion and will will than of reasoned analysis: he wants to use the passions of moment to clear the decks of those who disagree with him.

Novak, in contrast to Frum and many of the others in this controversy, is an adult with decades of experience of actual political life. Whatever one thinks of his positions, they ought to be taken seriously, not tossed into a pot with a variety of dreamers and dogmatists.

The paleo/neo controversy is a squabble between commentators, ideologues and real or wannabe intellectuals. But a lot of Republicans and conservatives don't fit into either category. Novak, John McLaughlin, and some of the Bush I team had real qualms about our current policies, but they certainly aren't paleocons. Whether they're right or wrong, they didn't form their opinions on the basis of magazine or Internet articles, but on the basis of their own experience in politics over the years.

In every controversy there are the more extreme views that appeal to abstract thinkers, and the more mixed or moderate or balanced views of those with experience in the field. Those views may still be wrong. They may be too timid. But they're worth considering sometimes.

Links:

Novak's review of Frum's Book

Operation Anglosphere

17 posted on 03/24/2003 8:18:49 PM PST by x
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To: x
Sorry, buddy, but David Frum has plenty of experience too. Most recently he worked for the current president as a speechwriter. Did it ever occur to you that, far from having some sinister plan to "clear the decks of those who disagree with him," Frum might have been angry for legitimate reasons? How many times do you expect him to be called a traitor (to a friendly nation, at that) before he lashes out? For the record, I'm willing, for lack of information to the contrary, to admit that Novak doesn't seem to be siding with the enemy in this war, even if he didn't want the war in the first place. As for Buchanan, he is still putting out his magazine that says that we're only in this war to make the Elders of Zion rich. Furthermore, even if Buchanan is giving out some "time to support the troops" balderdash, he certainly maintains close ties with the whole Samuel Francis crowd. Quit acting like you're some po' li'l innocent chile picked on by the mean neoconservatives. It's far more vicious to call someone a traitor, as the paleocons do, than to call him an anti-Semite, as the neocons supposedly do.
18 posted on 03/24/2003 8:36:49 PM PST by Wavyhill
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To: Wavyhill
Crude. Simply crude. Shame.
19 posted on 03/24/2003 11:36:53 PM PST by Burkeman1 (i)
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To: Wavyhill
Read the the review of Frum's book I linked to. Frum's job in the White House looks more like a revolving door, ticket-punching enterprise than anything more solid. And certainly, how Frum comports himself doesn't suggest that he's learned much in life.

I'm not aware that anyone has called the neo-cons traitors. Or said that "we're only in this war to make the Elders of Zion rich." Those are extreme distortions. For heaven's sake, look up "treason" in the dictionary or the Constitution.

Some critics may have said that the neo-cons allowed their sympathies with Israel or Zionism or Likud to shape their views on the war. That may or may not be true, and it may or may not be an important factor, but it's natural that one's views on one issue will affect one's view on other issues. It's charged against Arabic specialists and former Ambassadors to Saudi Arabia that their sympathies have affected their attitude towards the Middle East, so it's certainly possible that sympathies with Sharon might affect one's views on other questions affecting the region and lead one to make decisions that are less than optimal.

And Frum himself accuses those who disagree with him of hoping for an Iraqi victory -- vicious behavior indeed that goes far beyond anything Novak has said in this quarrel.

20 posted on 03/25/2003 12:11:58 AM PST by x
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