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Neanderthals, Humans May Have Never Mixed
Associated Press ^ | March 6, 2003 | PAUL RECER

Posted on 03/10/2003 5:30:34 AM PST by billorites

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Neanderthal was a squat, powerful hunter who dominated Europe for more than 100,000 years, but he disappeared forever when modern humans evolved in Africa and moved to the other continents.

There is no convincing evidence, says Richard G. Klein of Stanford University, that Neanderthals and modern humans ever mixed in substantial numbers, which means that when the Neanderthals died out, so did their genes.

"The Neanderthals may thus be regarded as a fascinating, but extinct, side branch of humanity," Klein writes in the journal Science.

This view, based on genetic and fossil studies, contradicts some studies that have suggested extensive interbreeding between the Neanderthals and modern humans. Those studies, based on a comparison of Neanderthal fossils and modern human bones, concluded that Neanderthal genes are a part of European heritage.

"I don't think that is widely accepted any more," said Klein. He said modern studies of mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal fossils suggest that the modern humans and the Neanderthals had a common ancestor about 500,000 years ago. But he said the studies do not support the notion that there was interbreeding after modern humans evolved in Africa and invaded Neanderthal habitats, starting about 45,000 years ago.

"The Neanderthal was a highly successful species," said Klein, but the reasons they became extinct are still unknown. Some theories have suggested they were wiped out by diseases introduced by modern humans. Another theory is that modern humans had better minds and an organized culture that enabled them to outsmart the Neanderthals for limited resources of game and other food.

"There is little to suggest that Neanderthals could behave in a modern ... way," Klein writes in Science. "This inability may explain why they disappeared so quickly and completely."

Klein said modern humans may have evolved a gene promoting speech and language that the Neanderthals lacked, but this is a theory without substantial proof.

Henry Harpending, a University of Utah anthropologist, said he is unconvinced of either Klein's arguments or theories that there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans.

Harpending said the genetic evidence is only marginal and open to different interpretations.

"Right now, there's no compelling evidence for either point of view," he said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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1 posted on 03/10/2003 5:30:34 AM PST by billorites
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To: billorites
I think the french is proof this
theory is wrong.
2 posted on 03/10/2003 5:33:14 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (chIRAQ & sadDAM are bedfellows & clinton is a raping traitor!)
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To: billorites
I don't know about this, I am sure I have some people who were direct decendants of Neanderthals :-)
3 posted on 03/10/2003 5:40:33 AM PST by riversarewet
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To: billorites
He said modern studies of mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal fossils suggest that the modern humans and the Neanderthals had a common ancestor about 500,000 years ago. But he said the studies do not support the notion that there was interbreeding after modern humans evolved in Africa and invaded Neanderthal habitats, starting about 45,000 years ago.

Suppose that there was interbreeding of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon, but for some biological/physiological reason, only offspring of female Cro Magnon and male Neanderthal survived? The mitochondrial DNA would not detect this.

4 posted on 03/10/2003 5:41:29 AM PST by FairWitness
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To: billorites

Case closed.
5 posted on 03/10/2003 5:47:16 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: FairWitness
Plus how much mitochondrial DNA do they have on any of these groups? I doubt they have enough to have any real idea, getting some DNA from a handful of individuals isn't going to tell them much.
6 posted on 03/10/2003 5:48:04 AM PST by FITZ
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To: FairWitness
Interesting idea. There was a book out years ago called Ice Man Inheritance that argued the aggressiveness and dominance of the caucasoid (white European) race (leading to European culture being dominant in today's world) can be accounted for by the mix of "primitive" Neanderthal genes in our history.

In other words, Europeans dominate the earth because we are bad a** quasi-Neanderthals in a state of inherited post-traumatic stress syndrome from surviving the Ice Age.

The whole thing was a hodge podge of anti-white racist pseudo-science, and has been promoted by some of the "white people are devils" fringe elements, but some of the points made about European bone structure being heavier than that of other races, our relatively larger amount of body hair, etc. were intriguing.

7 posted on 03/10/2003 5:58:59 AM PST by katana
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To: billorites
Oh I don't know about this... Look around. There's an awful lot of Neanderthal types out there...!
8 posted on 03/10/2003 6:10:38 AM PST by Savage Beast
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To: billorites
"The Neanderthals may thus be regarded as a fascinating, but extinct, side branch of humanity," Klein writes in the journal Science.

Or, it may just underscore the Biblical suggestion that a race of man existed long before any of our ancestors.

Just a thought.

9 posted on 03/10/2003 6:34:22 AM PST by nightdriver
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Now, now, stop picking on Ron Jeremy. What did he ever do to you ? :-)
10 posted on 03/10/2003 7:12:00 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (~Remember, it's not sporting to fire at RINO until charging~)
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To: blam
ping
11 posted on 03/10/2003 7:17:43 AM PST by Slicksadick
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To: fieldmarshaldj
Now, now, stop picking on Ron Jeremy. What did he ever do to you ? :-)

The horror...the horror...

12 posted on 03/10/2003 8:24:39 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: billorites
"There is no convincing evidence, says Richard G. Klein of Stanford University, that Neanderthals and modern humans ever mixed in substantial numbers, which means that when the Neanderthals died out, so did their genes."

So, they mixed just a little? This is better than previous dispositions that they didn't mix at all.

13 posted on 03/10/2003 9:55:22 AM PST by blam
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To: billorites
Redheads 'Are Neanderthals'
14 posted on 03/10/2003 9:59:23 AM PST by blam
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To: katana
but the reasons they became extinct are still unknown. Some theories have suggested they were wiped out by diseases introduced by modern humans. Another theory is that modern humans had better minds and an organized culture that enabled them to outsmart the Neanderthals for limited resources of game and other food.

It's obvious that the Neanderthals were killed off in war with the Cro-Magnons. There is a laughable denial in modern anthropology about the role of war in human evolution. It's laughable because Darwin wrote about this, it's been known for a hundred years. Those of us alive today are the genetic offspring of the successful war makers. Almost everything about our genetic make up is optimized for success at war. The Neanderthals had plenty of intelligence to find food, so the idea they couldn't find enough is silly. The reason for their extinction is that they weren't as good at war as the Cro-Magnons.

15 posted on 03/10/2003 10:52:28 AM PST by Reeses
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To: billorites
As I've often said in the past, if there was no intermingling how else can one explain the French?

Seriously, though, I'm firmly in Harpending's camp on the issue. There simply isn't enough clear evidence on either side to clearly decide it.
16 posted on 03/10/2003 10:58:42 AM PST by Bernard Marx
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To: Aric2000; balrog666; Condorman; *crevo_list; donh; general_re; Godel; Gumlegs; Ichneumon; jennyp; ..
Ping.
17 posted on 03/11/2003 11:13:41 AM PST by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: billorites
A good source on the subject: Neanderthals and Modern Humans A Regional Guide. Includes a summary of the interbreeding evidence, pro and con:

Introduction,
Ancient DNA,
Modern DNA.

18 posted on 03/11/2003 3:43:20 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: billorites
Hey, I'm not extinct, just ask my wife!
Call her and she'll verify that I'm a card carrying, club totin', cave dwellin' NEANDERTHAL!
Got raw meat.... will travel!
(scratch, grunt --- snort)
Grin : )
19 posted on 03/11/2003 4:06:12 PM PST by cavtrooper21 ("..he's not heavy, sir. He's my brother...")
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To: Junior
Hmmm...just look at a typical crevo thread. Neanderthals are constantly trying to relate to us homo sapiens.
20 posted on 03/11/2003 5:20:55 PM PST by Aracelis (Oh, evolve!)
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