Is the Pope Catholic...Enough?

The New York Times Magazine ^ | 03/09/03 | CHRISTOPHER NOXON

[valkyrieanne]

So what bishop *is* the parish under? Is this a schismatic group or something?

[shezza]

The more I read about this guy, the more I like him. One of my all-time favorites.

[8mmMauser]

They are simply ordinary Catholics who would be indistinguishable before Vatican II modern changes. They attend the (only) canonized Holy Sacrifice of the Mass of St. Pius V. In fact they may be even using old missals from before the changes to the novus ordo. We have some dating from the 19th century and they do just fine. The Mass does not change.

I have no idea which bishop may be involved, but am confident his priest is a valid priest. Many valid traditional priests abound. Traditional Catholic churches abound throughout the world and the services are the same as they always have been.

Schism? The Church of nearly 2,000 years is a schism? It didn't change.

Most traditional Catholics I know apply the caution of St. Paul in his epistle to the Galatians and follow the Word of God over the word of any man.

[Cicero]

Some Latin Mass traditionalists are in schism, some are loyal Catholics, and some are in a gray area.

The Society of Pius X, for instance, is schismatic. But the Pope has encouraged the bishops to allow the so-called Tridentine Latin Mass (which actually has roots going back long before the Council of Trent) to be said in their dioceses. Decent conservative bishops generally permit this practice when they are asked. Some liberal or dissenting bishops refuse their permission.

If the bishop refuses permission, then going ahead anyway becomes questionable. The bishops refusal is, to all appearances, unjust and arbitrary, and it goes against the spirit of the Pope's permission and encouragement. On the other hand, the presumption is that the ordinary is boss in his own diocese unless he really goes off the rails, and it's conceivable he may have some reason, or thinks he has some reason, to refuse permission. So refusing permission to celebrate the Tridentine Mass can't quite be characterized as unlawful or heterodox on the bishop's part.

So, who knows where Mel Gibson falls in all this? Hopefully he hasn't gone beyond the point where he will fall into schism. I suspect that the NY Times is itching to stir up trouble among Catholics with this story.

[1stFreedom]

From what I hear he belongs to a schismatic church. It's not Catholic, no more than Episcopalian's are -- yet they are both delusional and think they are Catholic.

[LadyDoc]

http://www.traditionalmass.org/dolan.html

Information on Bishop Dolan.

[TheAngryClam]

"theologist?"

Did anyone else notice the author using that word? Theologian!

[Jhoffa_]

I frankly just never did understand this Latin mass thing..

I mean, why speak in a language no in the congregation can understand? How is this beneficial to anyone?

[Jhoffa_]

I suspect that the NY Times is itching to stir up trouble among Catholics with this story.

I think they are trying to hurt Gibson.

He believes in Christ and isn't shy about saying so, he's Conservative and he's wildly popular.

That's three strikes right there.

[Gophack]

OK, this author has done some research, but is so obviously biased. Gibson left one church because it was taken over by the schismatic SSPX group, but he favors the Tridentine Mass, which is wholly allowed in the Church. There's nothing wrong with prefering the Tridentine Mass, and in fact the Pope made it clear that people should be allow to worship in the old Mass if they wanted, and many Bishops allow priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

I, personally, think Vatican II has been blown out of proportion on both sides ... I don't think it did all the evil things many "traditionalists" claim it did, but I do think that the "progressives" use Vatican II as a shield for their newfangled, anti-Catholic programs. I'm a traditionalist who prefers the Novus Ordo. I try my hardest adhere to the teachings of the Church in all matters of faith and morals, but I like the new order (provided the priest isn't a liberal).

No where in this article did it say Gibson doesn't adhere to the Magisterium of the Church, or that he's not in communion with Rome, or anything of the sort ... they just imply it. Most traditionalists I know believe firmly that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and that they must, as good Catholics, be in communion with Rome. Even during the darkest times of the church with the most wicked of bishops and Popes, the wicked Pope never changed the moral Truth of the Church. The Holy Spirit has protected Her, just as Jesus promised.

And the Holy Spirit is protecting His church now.

[kms61]

His father sounds like a kook, though. And Gibson's apparently got a few wacky ideas himself, re: whatever conspiracy he alluded to.

Hey, I like most of his acting. But it sounds like there's a little Hollyweirdness going on here, too, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum from most of the other Hollyweirdos.

[Salvation]

A bump for balance! Good writing there, Gophack!

[Jael]

Why isn't Mel a Catholic?

[Caipirabob]

Meanwhile, in the woods...

"Oh, where to go?"

[yianni]

I mean, why speak in a language no in the congregation can understand? How is this beneficial to anyone?

The properly educated do understand Latin. ...and Attic Greek.

[Jhoffa_]

The properly educated do understand Latin. ...and Attic Greek.

I don't believe for a minute that this is doing the majority of the congregation a bit of good.

Sorry.

[Free_at_last_-2001]

The properly educated do understand Latin. ...and Attic Greek. - Liberals hate Latin - I worked with a self proclaimed socialist and when the subject of teaching Latin in schools came up he nearly lost it - no way was he letting his kids learn Latin - it was like a crucifix to a vampire - his usual nonchalant self was truly shaken.

IMHO this seems to hint that when evil infested the Catholic Church perhaps it needed to change the language? Without bringing black helicopters and tinfoil hats into it perhaps a study of the main instigators of the Vatican Council II would be quite enlightening. In keeping with "the greatest thing evil can do is pretend it does not exist" - I'll wager they did it for good, for the children, for the love of God.

[Dajjal]

God bless Hutton and Mel!

[Possenti]

Interesting...

(My first ping list)