CARDINAL LAW’S RESIGNATION [Rabid Bigots Falsely Accuse Pope]

CatholicLeague ^ | 12-13-2002 | Bill Donohue

[Notwithstanding]

Their so-called smoking gun theory boils down to this: the pope in 1999 recommended that a defrocked priest ought not return to the area where he committed his offenses. They take this eminently sensible advice and use it as a hammer to bludgeon the pope. Just so everyone understands what’s going on here, what the pope did was to say that a former priest—someone who had been returned to the status of a layman—ought to start a new life in a new location. Isn’t this what parole boards recommend to released inmates—that they not return to the neighborhood that nurtured their maladies? Shame on Massachusetts Attorney General Thomas Reilly and others for disseminating this mindless charge.

[Desdemona]

I hope one of these days down the road, a "new" name will appear, and I will adjust accordingly - I can always hope...

I know. But in a lot of ways he's right. That doesn't mean that it's not going to leave a HUGE void. I'm sure he'll lurk, but it's not the same.

[Notwithstanding]

apparently for "no apparent reason"

[Loyalist]

I am indeed very sorry to see you driven off this forum by the radical Protestant faction.

You have been a bridge between several mutually hostile factions and it's a shame to see to you go,

God Bless and keep you this Advent.

[wimpycat]

Before anybody starts falsely accusing anyone else, it was me who hit the abuse button on that damn stupid cereal box, and if it shows up again, I'll hit the abuse button as often as necessary, and I will tell you why.

I'm a Southern Baptist, and anyone who used to post on the "Neverending Chronicles" threads about a year and a half ago will remember that I never ridiculed the Roman Catholic Church, its doctrine, or its practices. I may have had honest differences with it, but I never would have denigrated and ridiculed the honestly held beliefs of Catholics in such a manner as that stupid cereal box that everyone here thought was so clever, and I never will. As a matter of fact, I spent most of my time on those threads defending Catholic beliefs from a few silly-minded Protestants who wilfully misunderstood and ridiculed the meanings behind such concepts as the intercession of saints. I think Pope John Paul II is a wonderful man and leader, and if there was anyone worthy of being called Peter, he would be it. I think he's a great man. I happen to be Baptist, and I think Catholics and Protestants of goodwill are all Christians together. Our differences? Well, only God knows why and He will sort it all out.

Now, I'm not here to defend or excuse any stupid people who are taking the opportunity of the present scandal to ridicule Catholic doctrine and beliefs. I'm not the keeper or defender of stupid or hateful people. I've skimmed over this thread, and it's my impression that you guys have taken on a bunker or siege mentality (quite different from the Catholics I hung out with last year), and instead of (justifiably) telling the buttholes and jerks to take a flying leap, you're taking a giant dump on the whole of Protestant theology...which brings me back to the cereal box. I just happened to be surfing and ran up against that box and, as somebody not involved in this little war between Protestants and Catholics, I was immediately and highly offended, because I could sense the contempt and derision behind it. It wasn't funny at all, because it was intended to flip the bird, so to speak, to ALL Protestants, not just the ones who are attacking you. If I saw one of those Elizabethan era cartoons of priests with little devil tails posted "as a joke", I would have hit the abuse button just as fast.

As to all the other deleted posts on this thread, that wasn't me. But the cereal boxes disappearing, that was my doing. Well, it was the Admin Mod, actually, but he/she/they/obviously agreed that it was offensive enough to pull. (Except for the attempt to post it yet a third time in the Smokey Backroom...that wasn't me.) So now you know, and now you know why.

I'm not interested in debating anyone on doctrinal matters and I don't have the energy or time to look at examples of Protestant hatefulness. I just wanted you (both P and RC) to know that when you start in on, not the dumbasses themselves, but attacking and dragging through the mud deeply and truly held matters of faith (either P or RC), you are offending and hurting those who wish you no ill will at all.

[Notwithstanding]

Wimpy - your sentiments are apt, and appreciated, but the post I refer to in #222 is one that I posted that has nothing to do with th cereal box.

I have recieved no explanation as to why my post #12 was pulled - and you can see the contents of the now deleted post 12 at #203.

[Notwithstanding]

Perhaps you can agree that the pope's recommendation

that a priest (who plead guilty 2 years previosuly in court to molestation) ought not settle in the same community after he is defrocked

in no way impugns the pope's character or wisdom.

That is what this thread was supposed to be about. Then the haters showed up to claim the pope was caught with a smoking gun.

[wimpycat]

I'm not interested, like I said before, in entering into this sort of debate. I had a beef, I said my piece, and now I will remain silent.

.....welllllll...OK, just this one time...as to your question, I told you how well I think of this pope. Let me just say I feel the same about him now as I did when I first saw him on TV at the World Youth Day in Denver...I hope that answers your question.

And now, for real, I will remain silent...in a Thomas More sort of way, if you like. LOL!

[B-Chan]

I created the YOPIOS cereal box featurng Martin Luther. As a former Lutheran myself I see nothering particularly hurtful about the illustration. If you want to blame someone for it, however, please leave Polycarp out of it, because I did it and I stand by it.

B-chan

[BenR2]

I take it that you suggest that RCs are blind because we fail to lap up YOPIOS in place of the authoritative teachings of the Magisterium and of the Holy Father? You expected us to be impressed by this shallow argument or bare assertion, actually, because??????????

Ultimately, you are correct: It is a question of ultimate authority for faith and practice: God's Word -- or your much-revered Magesterium/Holy Father duo.

I'll take the former, thank you.

YOPIOS? Naahh. How about God's Word unfiltered and straight? (I know, the very thought makes you want to run for "Father.")

[BenR2]

You wrote:

I'll let Jack Chick's reputation (and yours if you defend him) rest on his execrable and laughable little bigoted comics. Are you actually rising to his defense? If so, there are a lot of folks here who will enjoy the exercise of administering to you some well-deserved spankings for your defending what is truly indefensible.

I write:

Your ignorance is apalling.

Am I to infer from your post that you hold to the view that First Amendment freedoms apply only to: a) Romanists; b)Romanist sympathizers; or c) rank unbelievers -- while fundamentalist/evangelicals are denied such liberties?

Hate to break it to you, but Jack Chick is simply exercising his First Amendment rights. So, yes, I defend that. And . . . ?

And, yes, of course, you are free to belittle him. That is your right. Many Protestants don't like him, either, because he is so blunt. Hey. Luther was blunt too. As was Calvin, Knox, etc. They all routinely referred to the Pope as Antichrist (and they didn't even enjoy First Amendment protection -- meaning that had cojones).

I like Jack Chick. Don't think his every tract is terrific, but, all in all: A rare bird. He has guts. He let's you know where he stands.

Come to think of it: So do you. Why do you deny Chick the right to rant as strongly for his view, as you do for yours?

[BenR2]

If your little acquaintance, BenR2 thinks that holding Jack Chick and his publications in low-esteem is "anti-Protestant" bigotry, then, no, my friend, I personally won't administered a well-deserved spanking.

If you mean that figuratively, spank away.

[B-Chan]

YOPIOS? Naahh. How about God's Word unfiltered and straight?

Sounds great. But how do you know when you're getting it "unfiltered and straight"? If the Bible was easy to interpret, there'd be no disagreement about what it "plainly" says. "Plainly", that isn't the case -- which is why there are a zillion Protestant denominations out there, each one proclaiming their own interpretation of God's Word to be "unfiltered and straight".

They can't all be right. Somebody has to decide what God is trying to say to us with His Word. In most Protestant churches of the mainstream variety, the final authority in matters of doctrine rests with the elders or the leaders of the synod; in so-called "independent Bible churches", the preacher of each individual congregattion gets to decide. In each case, a man or group of men officially define what their congregation believes, and those whose interpretation of "God's Word unfiltered and straight" differs significantly from the official interpretation are generally not encouraged to remain.

In other words, Protestant denominations and congregations have their own popes and bishops, just like the Catholic Church, and both are led and defined by men who act as infallible teachers of Truth and who possess the authority to define what is and what is not authentically Christian. The only real difference is that we have one Pope, and the Protestants have a pope in every pulpit.

And those who reject even this authority -- those who believe that every individual has the Spirit-given power to interpret God's Word unfiltered and straight -- become their own popes: a Papacy of One. This is the ultimate rejection of authority -- the decision to rely only on oneself as the final judge of Truth. "Ye shall become as gods, knowing good and evil".

God's Word unfiltered and straight? Sure. But the only way to know one is getting God's Word unfiltered and straight is to look to the teaching authority that Christ Himself left us: the Catholic Church.

[Notwithstanding]

Please refrain from laying it all out so plainly.
This is supposed to be a secret!

[BlackElk]

OK, let's try a simple challenge. Please cite any language of mine whatsoever that says or suggests that fools like Jack Chick or you should be denied the American constitutional right of Freedom of Speech or Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Association or Freedom of Worship or admit that this post of yours is pure thoroughly used male bovine nutrition.

If you can come up with a single example, I will tell you that whatever you THINK is such a statement or suggestion is one more proof of your fertile but futile and erroneous imagination and of the fact that, if you do not understand my simple posts, you are not very likely to understand the Bible on your own either.

I am eager for y'all to continue to blab your foolish pretensions as widely as possible. In that way, the general public may read and marvel at the incredible ruins made of Scripture by YOPIOS while then moving along past the sepulchre of deformation.

Your blatherings are very similar to those of Jack Chick. You are not called upon to defend his First Amendment rights at all or your own. No one is challenging his First Amendment Rights. His sanity? Perhaps? His unwarranted self-esteem and yours? Certainly.

The short answer is that I do not deny to Jack Chick or to you or to anyone like either one of you the precious right to make fools of yourselves in public. I exercise my own rights to point that out and to rise in defense of the Roman Catholic Church which you lacked either the spine or the intellect or the character to live within. We aren't drafting anyone and you are eloquent proof of the quality of whatever oozes out the door of Holy Mother the Church.

This thread is about Bernard Cardinal Law's long-overdue resignation. It has nothing whatever to do with whatever sect may claim your loyalties this week. It is none of your business except insofar as you may be called upon to pay for his prosecution or his incarceration, both of which are to be eagerly desired by Catholics. You come on here as a typical Catholic basher and then complain if Catholics respond in defense of the Faith because that may clash with your self-esteem or whatever and at least with YOPIOS. You are offended that we bow not before you. It must be a violation of your constitutional rights!!!! Isn't everything?

If you can't hack it as a Catholic, at least behave like a grown-up. If you fire, we are going to fire back. In the end, we win. Jesus Christ guarantees that victory.

[BlackElk]

Actually, as you may recall, whatever the flavor-of-the week sect to which you may belong may be or say, your ancestors in heresy received (not took) that Bible from (drum roll) the Roman Catholic Church!

Remember that, as a Protestant, you have to swallow the notion that Jesus Christ was conceived and incarnated, born, lived, entered into His public ministry, was arrested, suffered scourging and a crown of thorns, carried His cross, was stripped, crucified, died, was buried, resurrected from the dead, ascended into heaven, and sent the Holy Spirit, all so that 1485 years later, a renegade Augustinian monk, Fr. Luther, not violating but massacring the vows he took before and to God, casting a concupiscent eye upon a nun after both had made vows of celibacy, could found Christ's Church by posting 95 rebellious theses on the door of the Wittenberg Roman Catholic Cathedral on the Witches' Sabbath of October 31, known to his followers as "Reformation Day" and then marry Sister Katie. Right????? Tough luck for those Christians of the previous 1485 years who had little alternative but to be either pagans or under the thumb of all those Roman Antichrists! Right?????

As to God's Word, unfiltered and straight, you seem to suggest that you would NEVER submit to any mere human authority to explain it to you. To prove that you rely not on human authority, please translate the following sentence into Biblical Greek, Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic: "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." That should be simple enough for someone who can and must have read the original scrolls in the original languages. I feel sure that you and Jack are not relying on mere human translators of who knows what character or competence to provide you with "God's Word unfiltered and straight." Actually the very thought makes one laugh out loud before engaging in pity for you. No need for this elk to run anywhere over such a minor challenge.

[Campion]

Many Protestants don't like [Jack Chick], either, because he is so blunt.

Uh, I think that, in fairness to those Protestants, you should admit that they don't like Jack Chick, not because he's "too blunt," but because they think he's a rabid fanatic who regularly stoops to outright lies to advance his "cause". (Alberto Rivera, call your office.)

And, you know what? They're right.

[Quester]

And those who reject even this authority -- those who believe that every individual has the Spirit-given power to interpret God's Word unfiltered and straight -- become their own popes: a Papacy of One. This is the ultimate rejection of authority -- the decision to rely only on oneself as the final judge of Truth. "Ye shall become as gods, knowing good and evil".

Ah, ... but we don't consider ourselves infallible in interpreting scripture. We remain open to God's authority to correct our misunderstandings.

However, in the case of Catholic doctrine declared by an ex-cathdra pronouncement by your Pope, you have decided that such is infallible, and thus, not open for correction, even by the very authority of God.

[B-Chan]

we don't consider ourselves infallible in interpreting scripture. We remain open to God's authority to correct our misunderstandings.

And how precisely does this correction happen? A mysterious finger writing on the wall? A booming voice from the skies? Tea leaves? Chicken guts? What?

However, in the case of Catholic doctrine declared by an ex-cathdra pronouncement by your Pope, you have decided that such is infallible, and thus, not open for correction, even by the very authority of God.

Unless provided by some direct supernatural means (see above), all doctrine must come from the mind of a man via speech or the written word. Protestant congregations and denominations are no exception: every doctrine they teach was spoken or written by a man, and is accepted by those who follow it as being infallible. The Lutherans have Pope Martin I; the Calvinists have their Pope Jean; Presbyterians look to His Holiness John Knox, and of course the Methodists derive the Method from the ex cathedra pronouncements of Pope Wesley. As for the Baptists, the Pentecostals, and the other "independent Bible churches", it's either Pope Scofield, Pope Billy Graham, or Pope Criswell -- or the local pope down in the local pulpit. And of course, all of these Protestant popes are ultimately subject to the pope that lives between one's ears: "Pope Me", a Papacy of One.

Our Pope derives his authority from Christ, who breathed upon St. Peter (whom He named "Rock") and said "upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." And that authority was passed down to the successors of Peter. At his own death, St. Peter laid his hands on St. Linus and transferred the Divine authority to him... and thence St. Linus to his successor... and so on down through the ages to the cardinals who passed it on to John Paul II. The authority to teach given by the Holy Spirit to our Pontiff trumps that of any other teacher -- Pope Me, the local pope, Pope Calvin, Pope Luther, and all others who purport to preach the Christian faith.

And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. In the future (tarries the Lord), long after all the other pseudo-popes, denominations, heresies, schisms, and apostasies we know today are gone and forgotten, Christians on a distant planet circling another star will turn their eyes towards the city of Rome on the far-off planet Earth and acknowledge the Bishop who sits there-- and no other -- as the licit source of authoritative teaching.

[Quester]

we don't consider ourselves infallible in interpreting scripture. We remain open to God's authority to correct our misunderstandings.

And how precisely does this correction happen? A mysterious finger writing on the wall? A booming voice from the skies? Tea leaves? Chicken guts? What?

By the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit ... as it is written ...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[B-Chan]

"And how precisely does this correction happen? A mysterious finger writing on the wall? A booming voice from the skies? Tea leaves? Chicken guts? What?"

By the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit ... as it is written ... "He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance... he will guide you into all truth".

You didn't answer the question. I asked you how the Holy Spirit guides believers towards the Truth. You replied that He guides us by guiding us, which is begging the question. So I'll repeat: How does the Holy Spirit teach and guide the individual Protestant? Directly? Then how do you explain the manifold Protestant believers who disagree with one another regarding doctrine, each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit?

They can't all be right, after all. There is only one Christian truth. How can we know what it is?

By looking to the institution left to us by Jesus Christ Himself.: the Catholic Church. That's what Our Lord meant when He told St. Peter "Feed my lambs... feed my sheep." Instead of letting the sheep vote on what to do, or having the sheep follow one of their own over a cliff, Christ our Shepherd left us a shepherd to guide the flock in His stead: St. Peter. I trust in the Church which the Lord left in Peter's care to guide me in the ways of God, and I hope someday all Christians will come to do the same.