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To: beavus
Well, okay, but I wish you had addressed this:

The elephant in the living room is the impossible coexistance of three obvious facts: (1) the universe exists, (2) the universe has existed for a finite span of time, (3) something can't come from nothing. If you accept these three facts, and your definition of the universe is "all that exists, time included", then you have accepted a logical impossibility.

If these three facts are true (which I believe they are, or do you disagree?), and if it is also impossible for these three facts to be true at the same time (which must be the case since there was nothing from which the universe may have come prior to its existance), then there is a rather striking logical impossibility that must be addressed. How can you disagree with this?

My choice of a logic-defying definition for supernatural is the necessary result of the above logical step. You have chosen to short-circuit this discussion because you don't like my definition, but you haven't refuted the logic that demands that it be so-defined.

But so be it.

117 posted on 01/01/2002 3:02:12 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: Yardstick
You are a frustrating absurdity, aren't you? We have covered these but you are quite a selective reader.

You have nowhere established the "facts" of the finiteness of time or the universe. Even granting those as premises you have not established that finitude necessitates a creator, the impossibility of a first cause, or even the necessity of a first cause if it is assumed that time is finite. And, you certainly haven't established that the bag of contradictions (that there is something that both exists and does not exist) associated with your belief is somehow more valid than any other bag of contradictions.

And it is a little pathetic being accused of accepting logical impossibilities from somehow who confesses that his whole view of truth and existence is founded firmly upon a logical impossibility.

If you are so willing to break the bonds of reason and logic, why make it so hard on yourself? With such a detachment you have opened up an infinite world of possibilities for belief. Why not just find some religious document and believe it literally? Wouldn't that make life easier for you? Not so much hard thinking involved.

It is a kick, I must say, watching such logically crippled individuals think they can reason their way to the secrets of the universe. Kind of like joining the major leagues before you know how to spell "baseball".

118 posted on 01/01/2002 3:37:47 PM PST by beavus
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To: Yardstick
(1) the universe exists, (2) the universe has existed for a finite span of time, (3) something can't come from nothing. If you accept these three facts, and your definition of the universe is "all that exists, time included", then you have accepted a logical impossibility.

You have already defined your belief that there is more than the Universe, God is both separate from and part of the Universe that we know. Since you refuse to be boxed in to only thinking in terms of the Universe we know how can you legitimately try to box your opponents in.

121 posted on 01/01/2002 7:22:41 PM PST by Fish out of Water
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