Posted on 12/24/2001 4:25:26 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
All the ones you have named are sell-outs, turncoats and unreliable, characterless people to one degree or another. There are no R.E. Lees, Forresters, or S.W. Jacksons in that crowd.
As opposed to the Kennedys (ALL of 'em), Barney Frank, FDR, Truman, Schumer, Wellstone, and on and on.
IOW, nearly all politicians, no matter whence they hail, are scumbags. That's not what I was referring to........but you knew that.
I grow weary of the people who say this like it's a simple fact that any fool can see. Show me the facts.
See if any of this makes sense.
"The sophism itself is, that any state of the Union may, consistently with the national constitution, and therefore lawfully, and peacefully, withdraw from the Union, without the consent of the Union, or of any other state. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice...
What is now combatted, is the position that secession consistent with the Constitution -- is lawful, and peaceful. It is not contended that there is any express law for it; and nothing should ever be implied as law, which leads to unjust or absurd consequences. The nation purchased, with money, the countries out of which several of these states were formed. Is it just that they shall go off without leave, and without refunding? The nation paid very large sums, (in the aggregate, I believe, nearly a hundred millions) to relieve Florida of the aboriginal tribes. Is it just that she shall now be off without consent, or without making any return? The nation is now in debt for money applied to the benefit of the so-called seceding states, in common with the rest. Is it just, either that creditors shall go unpaid, or the remaining States pay for the whole? A part of the present national debt was contracted to pay the old debts of Texas. Is it just that she shall leave, pay no part of it herself? Again, if one state may secede, so may another; and then when all shall have seceded, none is left to pay the debts. Is this quite just to creditors? Did we notify them of this sage view of ours when we borrowed there money?
If we now recognize this doctrine, by allowing the seceders to go in peace, it is difficult to see what we can do, if others choose to go, or to extort terms terms upon which they will promise to remain...
If all the states, save one, should assert the power to drive that one out of the Union, it is presumed the whole class of seceder politicians would at once deny the power, and denounce the act as the greatest outrage upon State rights. But suppose that precisely the same act, instead of being called "driving the one out," should be called "the seceding of the others from that one," it would exactly what the seceders claim to do; unless, indeed, they make the point, that the one, because it is a minority, may rightfully do, what the others because they are a majority may not rightfully do. These politicians are subtle, and profound, on the rights of minorities. They are not so partial to that power, which made the Constitution, and speaks from the preamble, calling itself "We the People."
A. Lincoln, 7/4/01
Walt
Either that, or you're sharing with us your last conversation with your IRS agent.
Merry Christmas, Walt.
Well, I LIKE grits.
Merry Christmas, N-S.
Walt
Hmmm...George W. is from Texas, right? And Cheney is from Wyoming. Colin Powell is a southerner. He's from Jamaica, right?
Walt
Well, here's the intention of one Framer:
"What stronger evidence can be given of the want of energy in our government than these disorders? If there exists not a power to check them, what security has a man of life, liberty, or property? To you, I am sure I need not add aught on this subject, the consequences of a lax or inefficient government, are too obvious to be dwelt on. Thirteen sovereignties pulling against each other, and all tugging at the federal head, will soon bring ruin to the whole; whereas a liberal, and energetic Constitution, well guarded and closely watched, to prevent encroachments, might restore us to that degree of respectability and consequence, to which we had a fair claim, and the brightest prospect of attaining..."
George Washington to James Madison November 5, 1786,
having said prior to the Constitutional Convention:
"I do not conceive we can exist long as a nation, without having lodged somewhere a power which will pervade the whole Union in as energetic a manner, as the authority of the different state governments extends over the several states. To be fearful of vesting Congress, constituted as that body is, with ample authorities for national purposes, appears to me to be the very climax of popular absurdity and madness."
George Washington to John Jay, 15 August 1786
"In all our deliberations on this subject we kept steadily in our view, that which appears to us the greatest interest of every true American, the consolidation of our Union, in which is involved our prosperity, felicity, safety, perhaps our national existance. This important consideration, seriously and deeply impressed on our minds [at the constitutional convention] led each State in the convention to be less rigid on points of inferior magnitude...the constitution, which we now present, is the result of of a spirit of amity, and of that mutual deference and concession which the peculularity of our political situation rendered indispensible."
George Washington to the Continental Congress September 17, 1787
George Washington was a southerner, and he was for a strong national union.
I ask this over and over, and it never gets any play:
How on earth did the image of George Washington get on the Great Seal of the CSA? Were the leaders of the south trying to dupe the common men into fighting for them, or what?
Walt
S.W. Jackson? Who's that?
You mean Thomas Jackson, known as Stonewall? How odd.
And Lee:
"The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom and forebearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for 'perpetual union' so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession."
R.E. Lee January 23, 1861
Robert E. Lee was a sell-out--he sold out the Union.
The only reason he wasn't tried for treason was due to the magnaminity of the victors.
Walt
Okay, I'll quote somebody else.
"In 1886 [Henry W.]Grady, thirty-six years old, was invited to address the New England Society of New York, on the 266th anniversary to the landing of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. General Sherman, seated on the platform, was an honored guest, and the band played [I am not making this up] "Marching Through Georgia" before Grady was Introduced. Pronouncing the death of the Old South, he lauded the New South of Union and freedom and progress. And he offered Lincoln as the vibrant symbol not alone of reconciliation but of American character.
"Lincoln," he said, "comprehended within himself all the strength, and gentleness, all the majesty and grace of the republic." He was indeed, the first American, "the sum of Puritan and Cavalier, in whose ardent nature were fused the virtues of both, and in whose great soul the faults of both were lost."
--From "Lincoln in American Memory" by Merrill D. Peterson P. 46-48
Walt
Would you care to expound on that? How did Lincoln force the Civil War?
Walt
As to the South and their vote to split the country. That was doomed before it was even started. They lost site of the vision also. Lincoln said it right when he said that a Nation divided cannot stand. Slavery was wrong from the start. It was also economically unsound. Which is why only large plantations could afford slaves.
This country has produced great people from both the North and the South. What made this country great was not diversity. Diversity by its definition derives from divide. It was from the melding of ideas, cultures, and traditions. It was the giving up of where you came from to become part of what you chose, or was chosen for you.
The US has been called a melting pot, and it was. I grew up in an era of non-hyphenation. The older folks demanded that the young ones speak english because, "We are American".
If you make a stew and take each of the ingredients and wrap it it plastic and then cook it. You get water with some seasoning, but hey, the carrots are still carrots and the onions are still onions and the stew gets thrown out. As in a stew where each takes on some of the other while giving some of itself to the whole and makes a savory stew fit for a King, that is what this country has lost sight of. We have African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Latin-Americans etc. If you are going to insist on speaking your own language and dressing in your own way and refusing to become part of what this country should be, then leave. You would be much happier in Africa, Italy, Norway, etc.
The South has tried, (and in many places still tries) to hyphenate themselves. "American by Choice - Southern by the Grace of God". Having lived North, South, East & West and choosing South to live for the longest, I can say that North Easterners don't hyphenate. They are Americans, not Northern Americans, but Americans. There are the exceptions that are some third world-American, but they don't count.
Give it up folks, you are either and American or you are not. I can't make it any simpler than that.
Have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and may God richly bless you through out your life.
Bill Barnes
American First Last and Always
No, it's more like what my Momma used to say: Don't let the door bump you on the way out.
And oh, once you secede, don't come back to the US of A begging for "foreign aid."
Have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and may God richly bless you through out your life.
Bill Barnes
Thanks, Bill; that is great stuff.
Walt
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