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1 posted on 11/29/2001 3:56:50 PM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw; ipaq2000; Lent; veronica; Sabramerican; beowolf; Nachum; BenF; monkeyshine; angelo...
2 posted on 11/29/2001 3:58:04 PM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw
Good article. I have a few friends from Europe and they are universally sympathetic with the Palestinians. Its really surprising how much they criticize Israel.

If not for the US, Israel wouldn't have a real friend in the world. And I'm glad to be a US supporter of Israel, she has all the right (as in left) enemies.

3 posted on 11/29/2001 4:07:12 PM PST by keithtoo
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To: dennisw; Patria One
Plenty of Jews from the "Old Country" are quite aware of the pervasive, deeply embedded institutional anti-semitism in Europe. King Hussein spoke about it in the 40s. Back in the 60s I was shocked about some incident I'd heard had taken place in London, which I considered on a par with Civilization, and mentioned it to a Jew who spent several years of her childhood in one of the concentration camps, and she howled with laughter at my naivite, and claimed,

"London, SMONDON!!
ALL the Europeans despise Jews." That was her distinct memory, lol.

YMMV, realize the above is just a tiny anecdote. But for me, I really do NOT figure HOW the WSJ considers European JEW-HATRED to be anything extraordinary, as it's been livid and vivid for well over a thousand years. Them shetls ain't all they're made up to be in sappy sentimental nostalgia novels, much less the ghettos where most Jews in European cities lived until the 1800s...

4 posted on 11/29/2001 4:07:14 PM PST by meridia
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To: dennisw
Well, considering that most Eeurpoeans couldn't wait to help the Nazi's round up their Jews and ship them off to death camps (especially the French!), it is not a mystery why "Europe hates Israel".

Let's not make this more complicated than it is, folks!

5 posted on 11/29/2001 4:08:58 PM PST by RANGERAIRBORNE
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To: dennisw
Pretty good analysis. The world should ignore these Belgian courts which have assigned themselves jurisdiction over the whole world (probably to attract attention to their insignificant little non-nation.) The world should also ignore the world's greatest opportunist, the German Green Joschka Fischer, leftist street rioter and associate of known terrorists, now turned smarmy-mouthed Foreign Minister.
6 posted on 11/29/2001 4:17:20 PM PST by Malesherbes
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To: dennisw
All Jews should get out of Europe now, before it's too late.
8 posted on 11/29/2001 4:32:39 PM PST by BenF
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To: dennisw
Typical Israel apologist logic. The country's current Prime Minister aids and abets cutthroats to kill civilians, and a Belgian court calls it what it is - a war crime. Then the apologists go to work and dismiss it as Jew-hating.

Israel claims a right to kill Arafat's people because they don't exercise enough control over murderers among the Palestinians, then denies all involvement whateover in murders in Lebanon with a far larger toll.

Israel has as much right to be bombed as anybody in the Occupied Territories.

9 posted on 11/29/2001 4:33:45 PM PST by AGAviator
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To: dennisw
SATAN hates jews Europe hates Jews Hummmmmm.

Those who hate jews are on the side of satan...

11 posted on 11/29/2001 4:43:04 PM PST by RMrattlesnake
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To: dennisw
Europe SUCKS !!
12 posted on 11/29/2001 4:47:28 PM PST by timestax
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To: dennisw
Europe Versus the Jewish State

     By Yuval Steinitz - August 24, 2001

     European commitment to Israel's existence seems solid and stable. You would hardly find a European
     statesman or thinker who expresses explicit support for the annihilation of Israel.

     Yet a careful analysis of two common European positions - the support for the Palestinians' "right of return"
     and the objection to almost any Israeli defense operation - suggests that Israel's adversaries in the Middle East
     might find some hidden partners to their aim of destroying the Jewish state.

     Let's start by analyzing the prevalent European support for the Palestinians' "right of return." Should we be so
     charitable as to assume that enlightened people in Europe indeed fail to understand that the "right of return"
     formula means the extinction of Israel?

     Of course, most advocates of this Palestinian demand would base their position on a purely moral ground. The
     fact that the refugee problem is a result of the refusal of all Arab nations, including the Palestinians, to accept
     the 1947 UN resolution on establishing both a Jewish and a Palestinian state, seems entirely irrelevant to their
     humanistic approach. Even the ensuing Arab offensive, which was explicitly aimed at destroying the embryonic
     Jewish state and exterminating its people, is not the issue.

     The only thing that does appear to matter to some Europeans is that, according to their views, the rights of
     Arab-Palestinians who left their homeland 53 years ago are fundamentally superior to the rights of Jews who
     left their homeland almost 2,000 years ago.

     Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the dubious validity of the above reasoning, since our aim is not to refute it
     but rather to explore its cultural background, two important aspects emerge. First, that by advocating the above,
     those Europeans, in fact, withdraw their historical support for the 1947 UN resolution on the establishment of
     the State of Israel.

     Second, this humanistic approach reiterates one of the key principles of classical European anti-Semitism: that
     Jews are foreigners by nature, and hence, they are inferior vis-a-vis the natives, whether in Europe or in the
     Middle East.

     The claim that many Europeans see the Jews of Israel as fundamentally inferior in their national rights to their
     Arab neighbors, exactly as they used to be inferior to their European neighbors in the past, is supported from
     yet another perspective. Most European leaders vehemently criticize Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria,
     which means that they negate the Jewish right of return to central territories of their historical homeland. The
     main justification for their demand to freeze the settlements is that they might "jeopardize the forthcoming
     Palestinian state."

     Yet many of the same leaders do support the Palestinian right of return to territories inside Israel, thus
     supporting the Palestinian demand that freezing Jewish settlement in the territories will be accompanied by the
     process of sending hundreds of thousands of Arab-Palestinians to settle inside the Jewish state.

     Can they innocently ignore the presence of a symmetrical threat jeopardizing the Jewish state?

     As a former activist in the Peace Now movement I, together with my friends, shouted the slogan "two states for
     two people!" in the name of justice and equality. In our innocence, we never imagined that, concomitant with the
     process of establishing the Palestinian national homeland, we would be asked by some of our former European
     allies to slaughter - in the name of the selfsame principles of justice and equality - the precious lamb of the
     Jewish national homeland.

     Another issue that might shed some light on the real intentions of some European leaders toward Israel is their
     overwhelming objection to the right of Jews to protect themselves whenever required. Of course, it will be
     difficult to find a public figure in Europe who explicitly asks the Jews to sacrifice themselves without fighting
     back, as they did in the Holocaust. Yet, despite some general statements about Israel's natural right of defense -
     like any normal state - there is hardly an Israeli military operation that escapes their condemnation, while all
     the while refusing to take into account the brutal terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians, or the bold violations of
     all arms-control commitments by the Palestinian Authority.

     If Israeli soldiers return fire on Palestinian policemen who are shooting at a neighborhood of Jerusalem, our
     European friends express "sorrow" concerning "the violence on both sides." If Israel's F-16 airplanes target
     proper military installations as a response to the massacre of civilians in a shopping mall near Netanya, the
     European reaction is that it is "an improper excessive use of force, that might lead to unnecessary casualties."

     When Israel shifts its policy to pinpointing and striking at prominent terrorists, in an effort to minimize the
     danger to the entire Palestinian population, they consider it "execution without trial." When Israel imposes a
     closure on the territories to prevent suicide bombers from entering the country, they feel "uncomfortable" with
     "collective punishment."

     In short, Israel enjoys the universal right of self-defense, but not in a concrete way. Here again, one can observe
     the double standards of many Europeans, who would hesitate to dispute the right of other nations to fight their
     enemies, and all the more so when their civilians are being purposely targeted. When it comes to Israel,
     however, it is only restraint that derives some consent. It would thus seem that the old habit of seeing helpless
     Jews persecuted by their adversaries might still play some role, albeit unconsciously, in some modern minds.

     No doubt anti-Semitism is out of fashion nowadays in enlightened European circles. But if one can disguise a
     good old tradition under the cover of humanistic support for the Arabs in the Middle East, why not give it a try?

          (The writer, a Likud MK, is chairman of the Knesset Subcommittee for Defense Planning and

©2001 - Jerusalem Post

15 posted on 11/29/2001 5:02:44 PM PST by Lent
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To: dennisw
Europe hates everything that stands for anything.
22 posted on 11/29/2001 8:58:28 PM PST by VaBthang4
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To: dennisw; veronica
Thank you. A brilliant piece; except -- and notwithsatnding that it touched upon it -- in that it complicates its seeking to understand a rationalization and justification of the common, underlying, British/European envy-motivated and hatred and rage-engined attitude toward Israel.

The reality is much simpler: Israel is percieved as FReedom-loving America's "Baby."

And America is the real target of the quite palpable European hatred whose spill washes over Israel.

24 posted on 11/29/2001 11:47:16 PM PST by Brian Allen
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To: dennisw
29 posted on 11/30/2001 1:22:55 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: dennisw
This article contains some valuable information.... I can well recall that once, years ago, the press in general viewed Israel with open admiration, and also recall that this switched 180 degrees at some point. My personal recollection placed this shift "at or before the 1973 Oil Embargo," but this:

This fondness, however, evaporated after the 1967 war, when Israel went from being the Middle East's underdog to its Goliath,

shows that it happened earlier.

35 posted on 11/30/2001 2:34:41 AM PST by backhoe
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To: dennisw
Thanks for the ping. I recently got a satellite dish and receive the BBC. It's anti-Israeli stance makes CNN look good in comparison.
37 posted on 11/30/2001 3:04:02 AM PST by vrwc54
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To: dennisw
Actually islael was created by europeans to get rid of

Jews from europe. Europeans were really never against

ethnic cleansing of Jews by Hitler.

All the nazi occupied contries (poland, france, italy ...) were

tacitly helping nazies in this regard.

52 posted on 11/30/2001 4:53:36 AM PST by y2k_citizen
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To: dennisw
Why Europe Hates Israel...

Because bagels blow away baggets and the French are completely indignant about it? *sigh*

Because Israel was never confronted with a struggle to overcome the dark secrets of personal hygeine where continental Europe is still working on the basic theory?

I'm on target with at least one of these, help me out, people.

53 posted on 11/30/2001 4:59:46 AM PST by Caipirabob
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To: dennisw
A slightly longer answer is that many Europeans are sincerely convinced that Mr. Sharon really is a war criminal, as a BBC documentary attempted to show last summer.

Must be those same Europeans who view Arafat as a legitimate, peace-prize winning statesman.

In 1980, the European Community formally recognized the PLO despite the fact that Yasser Arafat had neither made peace with Israel nor dropped his overt sponsorship of terrorism. Currently, the EU supplies the Palestinian Authority with the bulk of its foreign aid, even as much of that money goes indirectly to funding textbooks describing Jews as monkeys and vermin.

*Gasp* Imagine that, I was right.

66 posted on 11/30/2001 6:48:08 AM PST by agrace
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To: dennisw; AGAviator
Underlying European policy is an uneasy sense of guilt. In the immediate postwar period, Europe's guilty conscience worked in Israel's favor. But in the postcolonial spirit of the '60s, the balance of guilt switched to the Arab side

The overall balance is still in favor if Israel, no matter how you cut it. One can argue that Europeans are only being consistent. Besides, if you kill their guilt, they may turn away from both Arabs and Israelis and stop paying attention to multicultaralism and charges of racism and anti-semitism, which are a tool to affect their policies.

The argument that liberals are better than neocons because neocons are the same liberals but less honest and consistent ones and therefore more dangerous is certainly attractive. Neocons are those Israel-firsters who decided that they can lobby for Israeli interests more effectively once principles of liberalism are discarded. Of course, with their being conservatives in name only, their ideology is an inconsistent mix of ideas that favor their agenda only. This is similar to the sentiment that European guilt was once good for the Jews, and now it's not.

113 posted on 11/30/2001 11:17:13 PM PST by madrussian
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To: dennisw to pass judgment while absolved of the moral responsibilities of wielding actual power.

That is a perfect summation of liberal thought in general, be it in Europe or America.

178 posted on 12/01/2001 12:46:02 PM PST by Anamensis
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