Posted on 11/26/2001 2:49:05 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
Rhetorical Questions to myself and other Catholic Apologists here:
After reading numerous threads of what I term the "Freeper Wars," I'm going to state an assumption (which might well be terribly wrong) then ask a few rhetorical questions.
If a "Freeper Wars" thread (you know the type, starts out as a thread of interest to Catholic freepers, then turns into the standard anti-Catholic posts with attempts to defend the faith by the regular Catholic Apologists here) is several days old and several hundred posts long, the "undecided" will be few.
Your apologetics are not intended to convert those whose hearts and minds are closed (although, by the Grace of God it does indeed happen). They are intended to illuminate the intellect and soul of those still open to Truth, and still willing to learn. I doubt that many of those make it to that point in threads here, i.e., when threads are 200 to 300 posts or longer, several days old, etc.
Therefore, your time is being spent only on those you are directly responding to, when they do their own self search.
Is that an effective use of your time and talent? Or would prayer, not words, be more effective at this point? Are we trying to win souls, or points of debate?
Just a few thoughts I ask myself constantly on these types of threads, i.e., where is my time better spent, reading to my kids and spending time with my spouse, or trying to convert those late on a thread whose minds and hearts are hardened? Are there enough lurkers late in a thread to make it worth the amount of time and intense effort to defend the faith that these threads usually entail late in their usual progression?
Belief in God is a matter of FAITH. Some have it and some don't. You can not imbue another with FAITH, he must find it on his own...or not, as his ego dictates.
I do not argue or discuss current events here except as it applies to my religion.
All politics, all apologetics, all charitable works, i.e., everything a committed Christian does, is aimed at the bottom line, the salvation of men's souls.
However, all are not humble enough to realize that their perceptions are that alone.
Some do not comprehend the true nature of humility.
I have all I can do to worry about the salvation of MY soul.
FReegards...
For people who are strong in their non-Catholic Chrisitan faiths, they have probably been strongly indocrinated into the "Catholics are evil" way of thinking (and I don't mean "evil" literally). In order for that to change, openess to Catholicism, followed by the reading of many books, talking to people, and a great deal of time thinking, is needed.
Pointing out how Catholicism, particularly the Mass, is entirely rooted in the Bible (which is not what non-Catholics are told); pointing out the passages which stress Sacred Tradition, in contradiction to Sola Scriptura; attempting to explain the role of the Blessed Virgin in our lives; etc. will probably not change anyone's minds. There is such a huge putdown of Catholics by Protestant ministers (which I've witnessed first hand on several occasions) that's it tough to overcome that.
Then again, it may well be the start down that path; one never knows. I'm not saying don't try to explain/defend - just don't expect any immediate miracles.
Actually, I think this is false.
I was raised in a Reformed church, and we honestly never discussed Roman Catholicism in church school.
If I wasn't married to a Catholic, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
I was very surprised to learn, through my wife, that many Catholics are laboring under the misapprehension that Protestants are constantly, obsessively thinking and talking about the Roman Church.
With the exception of supposed "former Catholics" (who are obsessed with Roman Catholicism), nothing could be further from the truth.
If anything, we don't think about it enough. The Protestant walk with Jesus is fairly self-contained.
I thought that too, till I started receiving Freepmail that proved otherwise. Two facts emerged from my private correspondences here (mainly as a result of one thread I posted) as well as many posts on Freeper War threads.
1) Freeper apologetics WORK. 2)Vicious Anti-Catholic remarks are driving folks to home to Rome, not away from it. Decent folks recognize the uncharitable spirit of these comments, and the ultimate source of such uncharity, despite the fact that scriptural proof texts are used. To use scripture to spread deceit is the ultimate act of uncharity.
I am not a Catholic; consequently you haven't seen me often, if ever, on the type of threads you refer to here, although I have "dipped into" most of them just to see if there's anything different going on. Generally speaking, there isn't.
I am a Protestant, in fact, an "old-line" Protestant, and one who respects and admires the work of such Biblical scholars as Raymond E. Brown, S.S.; Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J.; and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., who together edited The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, which has a place in my "at hand" library next to my computer.
I would offer a couple of points for you to consider while you ponder the efficacy of your recent work here at FR:
One is the point of view held by the late Presbyterian evangelical (back when evangelical meant evangelical) Billy Sunday, who once said, "Once you know Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, all other theology is gravy; you've already got the biscuit." In my view, this is a quote that deserves more than a little serious thought by Catholics and Protestants alike.
The other point was one held and put in practice by two prominent Protestants, one an Anglican, the other a Presbyterian, who believed that in this post-modern age it was no longer possible to talk to the "average man" in Biblical or theological terms. They believed this because they recognized the fact that so few are being raised today with any religious background that to "talk Bible" to them is to speak in a foreign tongue. They advocated finding common ground with the other fellow, and speaking to him in his language. They both believed that if put into practice faithfully, their methodology would eventually lead the other fellow to ask for some Scriptural backup.
These two men were C.S. Lewis and Francis A. Schaeffer, whose works may be fairly judged by their achievements. I highly recommend the study of their methods to every faithful Christian, regardless of polity or ecclesiology.
Does anyone have conversion statistics?
How many convert to catholicism, and from what religion?
How many repent of catholicism, and to which faith do they go?
Your apologetics are not intended to convert those whose hearts and minds are closed (although, by the Grace of God it does indeed happen).
Also gotta ask yourselves; How many people do you drive AWAY from the catholic church with your apologetics? How many solidify their views (against catholicism) based on what they read in the FReeper war posts?
I've read through 500+ posts if the topic is of interest, and I'm learning.
It took me a long time to find a church "home" because of sutff like that. Whenever I heard the minister start into a diatribe about nearly anything - dancing, drinking, any other church - I quit going, because I cannot conceive of a God that isn't satisfied with a person who lives his life true to his faith.
I remember walking out of one Baptist service because the fundamental minister was in the middle of a three-hour roll about a petition that was drawn up to allow liquor by-the-drink to be served in the little town I then lived in.
I eventually became an Anglican Catholic (Episcopal, the "daughter" of the Church of England), and have yet to regret the decision.
Few Catholics are laboring under such misapprehension. Few Catholics care what other denominations think of our faith.
However, those of us engaged in Catholic apologetics do care. But even we are not under such misapprehension. We realize that it is a small subset of protestantism that is obsessed with the Church of Rome. Entire ministries are committed to trying to steal folks away from Catholicism, and in some churches there is no positive preaching of their own Gospel but merely a preaching of how evil the doctrines of Rome are (I've been to them.)
So, just as few protestants care to think about Catholicism, few Catholics worry about what protestants think. Those that do are generally engaged in apologetics with anti-Catholics. There is a wide gulf between the non-Catholic protestant and the anti-Catholic protestant. If we can convert an "anti-"Catholic into a simply "non-"Catholic Christian, we have won a major battle.
That is a silly question. The Catholics almost always write calmly and with reason.
Some Protestants write thus also but many write as if they are snarling and pounding their fists upon the table. Catholics here
almost never accuse others of conspiracy and Evil. Many Protestants do just that. If one is attracted to unreasoning fanatics
then Catholic reasonableness may, indeed, drive them away.
No, I don't.
We're not called to be successful, we're called to be faithful.
How many repent of catholicism
Catholicism, namely the belief in Our Savior Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the crucifixion, death, and resurrection, the Second Coming and final Judgement, and all the other "fundamentals" of the fundamentalists is not something of which to repent but something, once found, of which to rejoice.
That said, I did not begin this thread to engage in apologetics with anti-Catholics/ex-Catholics, but to discuss among ourselves methods and outcomes. Therefore I will not engage in further dialogue with you on this thread, for that is not this thread's purpose.
Thank you for your comments, and may God Bless you abundantly.
Well...I've made some fairly sharp comments here on FR of late, which could be interpreted by their targets as "accusing others of conspiracy and Evil," but only when Catholicism itself was being accused of conspiracy and Evil.
Many of the protestant ministers who have become Catholic in the last 15 years (several hundred was the count in the early 90's) converted because of their Pro-Life, Pro-Family committment, and their frustration at their own denomination's lack of committment and even hostility towards the Pro-Life movement.
The Pro-Life cause has done more for true ecumenism than any other factor in the last 500 years, as your post illustrates. God brings good even out of evil.
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