Posted on 11/23/2001 7:18:23 AM PST by RealGem
kangharue:
Here's what the original Greek actually says:
Greek has three words for "one": masculine, feminine, and neuter. The meaning of the sentence, "I an my father are one" will change depending on whether the masculine "one" or the neuter "one" is used. If the masculine "one" is used, the meaning is that the two are of one essence, essentially one THING. If the neuter "one" is used, it means that the two are alike is some way. It could mean something like..they both like fried chicken...or that that they are in agreement about something. The original Greek uses the neuter. So, this passage cannot be used to prove that Jesus and God are one in the same thing...of the same essence.
Also, if you continue on in this passage, Jesus quotes from Psalm 82 and has makes an interesting lesser to the greater comparison between the magistrates of Psalm 82 and his more exalted status. However, there is still nothing in the passage about Jesus claiming divinity.
kangharue:
...and as the Messiah (or Christ). Both views, Christian and Islamic, are at odds with the Old Testament vision of the Messiah.
That depends on the context of the equation. There is no question that the LDS church is not fanatical. The Mormons I have known have all been reasonable, patriotic, friendly people who are model citizens. There is nothing in Mormonism about using violence to convert people. The only method they use is friendliness and door-to-door evangelism. On the other hand, Islam would never accept the notion of a plurality of gods. I was not attempting to equate their belief systems. I was equating the method of their special revelation. That is all.
Shalom.
I concur. "If Christ is not risen from the dead then our faith is in vain." The purpose of my post was to point out that religious issues are important and do impact our lives. Therefore people shouldn't shrug off a question like the title of the article. Your post went one step further and explained one reason why, if you study the issues, you must come to the conclusion that Christianity is the valid religion. There are other reasons as well. But I leave those to evangelistic threads.
Shalom.
http://www.sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html
Are you retarded? or do you think the rest of us are?
Oh, and no, I don't think you're retarded, nor do I think anyone else here is retarded. Was that the only insult you could come up with?
Background
Long before this ministry was incorporated, we were individually involved in the same kind of activity but with somewhat different focus. At first we were concentrating more on the task of defending the human rights of Christians living under Islamic regimes in the Middle East. It was logical, to our minds, that since we were once living under these same circumstances, that we would have feelings of compassion towards our brethren who were still there.
These feelings have not changed, and these efforts have not stopped. However, we recently, came to the realization that we could not separate the teachings of Islam from the plight of those people.Muslims are not inherently violent; it is their interpretation of some of Islam's teachings, that make some of them act that way.
Accordingly, we decided to expand our ministry to expose these teachings, especially after we learned that Muslim activists were working fervently to convert America to Islam. Our concern was that, while we were defending our people in the Middle East, we did not want our children or grandchildren in America to face the same problems we did in our mother countries, if Islam were to take over America.
Our Theology
This ministry was established as a Christian organization. Our beliefs, methods and activities are based on and influenced by Christian ethics. Our members are Christians who belong to different Christian denominations. We do not interfere in each persons beliefs and practices. However, we all share the belief in a basic set of doctrines recognized and accepted by most mainstream Christian churches. These beliefs are incorporated in what is known as "the Nicene Creed."
Our Support
This ministry is 100% based on volunteerism. Nobody gets a salary, and we don't have a payroll. All revenues go to the actual cost of producing and mailing the materials. We engage in the most effective methods of ministry that require the least amount of money. Part of our ministry is to financially assist Christians living under Islam who suffer hardships, as our budget allows.
Our financial support comes mainly from our own group, and from others who share the same convictions. Our method of fund raising is to simply to declare the need, and let God do the convincing. We believe, if it is in God's will that a certain project be accomplished, He will provide for it. We don't believe in bombarding our supporters with financial requests, or applying any pressure on them to give. We encourage people to give out of a cheerful heart, from the abundance of God's blessings and only if they believe in the message of this ministry. We don't compete with the local churches in this matter, we ask our supporters to put their churches first.
Our Mission
Muslim activists, in their attempt to spread their religion in the West, have been deliberately hiding a certain side of their religion. They carefully avoid, obscure and omit any negative teachings of Islam in order to lure converts. Our mission is to expose these teachings that are withheld from seekers in order to help people gain a more realistic insight of what it is like to live under Islam.
Our Method
Our name, "The Pen vs. The Sword," well summarizes our philosophy. We believe that "the Pen is mightier than the Sword," and love is stronger than hatred. Our weapon is the pen, our ammunition is the word. The Bible says: "the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword." Hebrews 4:12.
We try to make our message simple, direct and clear. We take the daring approach of proclaiming the truth in its entirety, even if it hurts. In doing so we may lose some friends or make few enemies. Of course, we don't derive any satisfaction from being disliked, we would rather be liked by everybody. The Bible says, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18. However, we recognize that it is not possible to please everybody, at all times, and still be true to our calling. Jesus warns, "Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you,...." Luke 6:26
Perhaps what provides the balance is the fact that we do nothing out of spite or pride. Rather it is, with love and humility, that we sincerely seek the truth.
There's other Biblical passages where Jesus makes clear he is God. What do you think "No one knows the Father except the Son" means, for example?
kangharue:
This is a joke...right?
kangharue:
Maybe not...but it doesn't mean what you said it means either. The use of the neuter "one" means they are alike/in agreement in SOME way. One possible interpretation is that Jesus perfectly follows the will of God...so perfectly that they are "ena", not "enas" (using Modern Greek here)
laser:
There's other Biblical passages where Jesus makes clear he is God. What do you think "No one knows the Father except the Son" means, for example?
kangharue:
Why would that be a claim to divinity?
Not even the physical healings that baffle doctors, with medical records to back it up?
If (as I believe) miracles indeed accompany any revelation of Scripture, why are there no miracles of the myriad types recorded in the Jewish books and the Christian New Testament recorded in the Quran (healings etc.)?
a_Turk: I don't know. Many nights of prayer may yield some answer. Maybe 'coz they were not thought to be needed to entice with.
Nice to meet someone who acknowledges what they don't know :) As regards the miracles recorded in the Bible, I have yet to come across one which could be regarded as superficial and designed to entice. They are all God meeting a point of need and showing His glory to us.
2. If the Quran is a follow on from the Jewish Scriptures and the New Testament, why does it differ from them on many major historical points?
a_Turk: Lots of possibilities. Any specifics?
Plenty, but a few of the more obvious ones are:
a) Noah's flood took place in Moses day(Sura 7:136, 7:59). The Bible says that the flood took place long before even Abraham was born, and Moses was born several generations after Abraham lived.
b) Abraham was thrown into a fire by Nimrod (Suras 21:68, 69; 9:69). The Bible says that Nimrod lived many centuries before Abraham, so he could not have done that
c) Abraham went to sacrifice Ishmael (Sura 37:100-112). The Bible says it was Issac
That's enough to be going on with, I think :)
3. If one of the ongoing miracles claimed is the preservation of the Quran according to Allahs promise that he would preserve his word from corruption, how can the simultaneous claims that a) Allah preserves his word uncorrupted, and b) that the Jewish books and the Bible are corrupted, possibly be reconciled?
a_Turk: Where in the Koran does it state that the Holy Books are corrupted?
I am not aware that it does (I didn't say it did, certainly), but the claim "The Bible has been corrupted, but the Quran is perfectly preserved" is one I frequently hear from Muslims I encounter in chatrooms. I asked a few of them where they heard that and was told it is a fundamental truth, the Bible must contain errors because it disagrees with the Quran in places, and the Quran is perfect.
It's the people who are corrupted, as they foolishly find "loopholes" and succumb to their irresistable urges to sin. That's evident from the state of our Muslims, Christians, and Jews (spoken as a human) today..
All too true, unfortunately. So many think if they pay lip service to God they can get away with anything. If they don't realise that they are sinners in need of a merciful Saviour before they die, it's too late - forever.
Can we distinguish between Islam and Christianity?
Oops, that was the original question...LOL
Read the first chapter of the Old Testament carefully and you will see it there.
LOL Jesus the terrorist...did he (his followers) send those planes into the WTC?
Don't make others do all the work for you. Scroll up and you will see many quotes.
Didn't you read the whole thread?
You are asking questions that have already been answered above.
Synchro:
Read the first chapter of the Old Testament carefully and you will see it there.
Elizabeth:
Even the Quran does this. It's a "royal" plural...found in some languages.
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