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A Coup against the American Constitution
KPFA Radio 94.1 FM ^ | November 14, 2001 | Professor Francis A. Boyle

Posted on 11/19/2001 3:49:13 AM PST by tberry

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To: Rowdee
I love the sound of whining on the internet.
81 posted on 11/19/2001 5:52:36 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Texasforever
and......?
82 posted on 11/19/2001 9:14:43 PM PST by Rowdee
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To: Rowdee
and......?

and all the roght people screaming about these tribunals. It proves they will be effective.

83 posted on 11/19/2001 9:18:44 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Texasforever
..."the roght"...a typo, I'm sure....but what are you trying to say? sorry.
84 posted on 11/19/2001 9:44:40 PM PST by Rowdee
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To: tberry
... — that’s really what we’re seeing now, Dennis, a constitutional coup d’etat. There’s no other word for it.

Meanwhile, We The People wrap ourselves in the flag and cheer them on.

I guess we really do deserve what we get.

85 posted on 11/19/2001 9:47:43 PM PST by RoarNLion
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To: borntodiefree
The issue of "lack of a declared war" is a red herring and is historiclly incorrec. The precident most often cited is the declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates also seems to be a fallicy as pointed out in the bolded portions of the following document

Declaration of War

In the early draft of the Constitution presented to the Convention by its Committee of Detail, Congress was empowered ''to make war.''1412 Although there were solitary suggestions that the power should better be vested in the President alone,1413 in the Senate alone,1414 or in the President and the Senate,1415 the sentiment of the Convention, as best we can determine from the limited notes of the proceedings, was that the potentially momentous consequences of initiating armed hostilities should be called up only by the concurrence of the President and both Houses of Congress.1416 In contrast to the English system, the Framers did not want the wealth and blood of the Nation committed by the decision of a single individual;1417 in contrast to the Articles of Confederation, they did not wish to forego entirely the advantages of executive efficiency nor to entrust the matter solely to a branch so close to popular passions.1418

The result of these conflicting considerations was that the Convention amended the clause so as to give Congress the power to ''declare war.''1419 Although this change could be read to give Congress the mere formal function of recognizing a state of hostilities, in the context of the Convention proceedings it appears more likely the change was intended to insure that the President was empowered to repel sudden attacks1420 without awaiting congressional action and to make clear that the conduct of war was vested exclusively in the President.1421

An early controversy revolved about the issue of the President's powers and the necessity of congressional action when hostilities are initiated against us rather than the Nation instituting armed conflict. The Bey of Tripoli, in the course of attempting to extort payment for not molesting United States shipping, declared war upon the United States, and a debate began whether Congress had to enact a formal declaration of war to create a legal status of war. President Jefferson sent a squadron of frigates to the Mediterranean to protect our ships but limited its mission to defense in the narrowest sense of the term. Attacked by a Tripolitan cruiser, one of the frigates subdued it, disarmed it, and, pursuant to instructions, released it. Jefferson in a message to Congress announced his actions as in compliance with constitutional limitations on his authority in the absence of a declaration of war.1422 Hamilton espoused a different interpretation, contending that the Constitution vested in Congress the power to initiate war but that when another nation made war upon the United States we were already in a state of war and no declaration by Congress was needed.1423 Congress thereafter enacted a statute authorizing the President to instruct the commanders of armed vessels of the United States to seize all vessels and goods of the Bey of Tripoli ''and also to cause to be done all such other acts of precaution or hostility as the state of war will justify . . .''1424 But no formal declaration of war was passed, Congress apparently accepting Hamilton's view.1425

Sixty years later, the Supreme Court sustained the blockade of the Southern ports instituted by Lincoln in April 1861 at a time when Congress was not in session.1426 Congress had subsequently ratified Lincoln's action,1427 so that it was unnecessary for the Court to consider the constitutional basis of the President's action in the absence of congressional authorization, but the Court nonetheless approved, five-to-four, the blockade order as an exercise of Presidential power alone, on the ground that a state of war was a fact. ''The President was bound to meet it in the shape it presented itself, without waiting for Congress to baptize it with a name; and no name given to it by him or them could change the fact.''1428 The minority challenged this doctrine on the ground that while the President could unquestionably adopt such measures as the laws permitted for the enforcement of order against insurgency, Congress alone could stamp an insurrection with the character of war and thereby authorize the legal consequences ensuing from a state of war.1429

The view of the majority was proclaimed by a unanimous Court a few years later when it became necessary to ascertain the exact dates on which the war began and ended. The Court, the Chief Justice said, must ''refer to some public act of the political departments of the government to fix the dates; and, for obvious reasons, those of the executive department, which may be, and, in fact, was, at the commencement of hostilities, obliged to act during the recess of Congress, must be taken. The proclamation of intended blockade by the President may therefore be assumed as marking the first of these dates, and the proclamation that the war had closed, as marking the second.''1430

These cases settled the issue whether a state of war could exist without formal declaration by Congress. When hostile action is taken against the Nation, or against its citizens or commerce, the appropriate response by order of the President may be resort to force. But the issue so much a source of controversy in the era of the Cold War and so divisive politically in the context of United States involvement in the Vietnamese War has been whether the President is empowered to commit troops abroad to further national interests in the absence of a declaration of war or specific congressional authorization short of such a declaration.1431 The Supreme Court studiously refused to consider the issue in any of the forms in which it was presented,1432 and the lower courts gen erally refused, on ''political question'' grounds, to adjudicate the matter.1433 In the absence of judicial elucidation, the Congress and the President have been required to accommodate themselves in the controversy to accept from each other less than each has been willing to accept but more than either has been willing to grant.1434

86 posted on 11/19/2001 11:38:32 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: jerod
wherever a general power to do a thing is given, every particular power necessary for doing it is included

"Necessary" being the operative word here, not "expedient" (which of course takes us all the way back to McCulloch v. Maryland, a subject for another thread, I suppose).

87 posted on 11/20/2001 5:25:28 AM PST by Sandy
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To: Texasforever
OK, I agree with that. Actually, I was more referencing the Congress have jurisdiction over crimes on the high seas and violations of the Law of Nations (which if I remember correctly this would fit).

Additionally Article III Section 2 - The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction
to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Heir Bush does not have the authority. If he did, he wouldn't have to put out an illegal EO to try and make the claim.

As I have said in another thread, Americans do not have God given rights, "All men are created equal" all people have God given rights (and for the Athiests natural rights :) ).

I am not fighting for the rights of these nut cases, I am fighting for the rights of ALL people. And as I said earlier, if they are found guilty then

"If they are tried and convicted, then hangem, torchem, slam them into a wall at 400 miles an hour, draw and quarter, electricute, gas, and whatever else is deemed appropriate."
88 posted on 11/20/2001 7:18:09 AM PST by borntodiefree
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To: Khepera
Thanks! I get so sick of these paranoid individuals who think that NAZI Germany is just around the corner, even when we have a just cause and a just war.
89 posted on 11/20/2001 10:54:29 AM PST by ohioman
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To: ohioman
I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing with on this point, but I just want to make a point of why people do and should question these actions (again whether they are right or not).

The Germans had "a just cause and a just war", right after the Reichtag (spelling)fire.

I'm not saying that this is exactly the same, but what a "great" way to push through legislation that normally wouldn't get through.
90 posted on 11/20/2001 12:09:51 PM PST by borntodiefree
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