A Just Cause, Not a Just War

The Progressive ^ | December 2001 | Howard Zinn

[BibChr]

A good article by Zinn

On your homeworld, are "good" and "long" synonyms?

Dan

[Lexington Green]

"Pacifists are among the most immoral of men. They make no distinction between aggression and defense. Therefore, pacifism is one of the greatest allies an aggressor can have!" -- Patrick Henry

[arkfreepdom]

Kill'em in Afghanistan or kill'em in Ohio. I prefer collateral damage in someone else's country. These a**holes needed killing, and we are doing our best to prevent civilian deaths.

[Gimlet]

This is interesting. I heard Zinn on the radio shortly after 9/11. he sounded like such a genial and reflective man. He was speaking about his experience as a bombardier in the Second World War and how that is what was the second thing he thought about when he heard the news of the attacks (second that was to his horror and shock.). He said that how easy it was to forget that there are real people with real lives and families that get killed (he was referring to the Mohammed Atta and his gang) but also remembering his own service. I think that his war experience changed his life.

[muawiyah]

The problem with this guy's opinion is that they are still shooting at me and I want them to stop. All this guy offers are pious platitudes. When is he going to step out there between the AlQaeda bullets and my body?

Bet he's not willing to do that.

What kind of true pacifist just steps back from the conflict?

[fourdeuce82d]

I think that his war experience changed his life.

I read some of his stuff, including some biographical essays, and he sayts the same thing. I'm not a big fan of the "screw 'em- they shouldn't have attacked us" school mostly because, well..."'em" didn't attack us- it was guys w/Al-qaeda, who are being suppported by the taliban.

Having said that...I think we should keep bombing, even if we are killing innocents.

[Mark17]

"Pacifists are among the most immoral of men. They make no distinction between aggression and defense. Therefore, pacifism is one of the greatest allies an aggressor can have!" -- Patrick Henry

Aren't they usually the first ones executed by a conquering army, along with other traitors? The victors figure, if these pacifists and traitors betrayed their own country, then they could never be trusted by them either. This seems to be something the 5th columnists never learn.

[Gimlet]

Kill'em in Afghanistan or kill'em in Ohio. I prefer collateral damage in someone else's country. These a**holes needed killing, and we are doing our best to prevent civilian>
I pray and hope and do believe we are doing our best to avoid civilian casualties but with no journalists there to tell the story it is hard to tell and even harder to prove.The sanctity of human life cannot hot be brushed aside though, even by our justifiable outrage; just as it cannot be brushed aside when an unborn baby is an inconvenience. Ohio? Hey...careful!

[11B3]

"Pacifism would do to nations what gun control does to individuals: leave them helpless before masked men with dark intentions. A.J. Armitage

What part of "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" don't you turn the other cheek, limp wristed, jellyfish understand? We had 8 long years of ineffective retaliation against this sort of terrorism, and now it has come home to roost. Face it - your pacifism is DEADLY. Our enemy only understands violence - he doesn't share your nice comfortable value/morality set. Sheesh. There's more of you leftists here today than usual.

[CatoRenasci]

Howard Zinn is a radical, a Marxist historian whose works seek to undermine America. He has made it clear in academic writings, that he views the propagation of his ideology as more important than historical accuracy.

He is the enemy.

[Gimlet]

No pacifist here. But to really WIN this war we need chessplayers not just cluster bombs. This is not a simple schoolyard brawl. A lot hinges on how we play the game - like our future security for example. Thoughtful discussion from those who know what they are talking about and know the enemy all too well is helpful in winning this must-win war.(I don't know that I would put Zinn in that catagory but it never hurts to pay attention to another point of view). Insults and simple-minded parroting of political soundbites gets none us anywhere.

[Gimlet]

Where are you muawiyah?

[Gimlet]

Zinn is one of those people we honored yesterday in all our parades. Thanks to him and people like him the last group who wanted to destroy our freedoms - Hitler and his crew - were thoroughly crushed. Zinn is not the enemy. We just disagree with him - strongly.

[samtheman]

How can a war be truly just when it involves the daily killing of civilians, when it causes hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to leave their homes to escape the bombs, when it may not find those who planned the September 11 attacks, and when it will multiply the ranks of people who are angry enough at this country to become terrorists themselves?

WWII involved the daily killing of civlians and caused people to leave their homes. Guess we should have let Hitler and Hirohito win.

[deport]

From another zinny article.......

Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed, decent wages and a clean environment for all. We can not be secure by limiting our liberties, as some of our political leaders are demanding, but only by expanding them.

[JmyBryan]

We ourselves are the expansionist power--troops in Saudi Arabia, bombings of Iraq, military bases all over the world, naval vessels on every sea--and that, along with Israel's expansion into the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has aroused anger.

Then why hasn't the US annexed Iraq, Somalia, Yugoslavia, N Korea, etc

The United States could have treated the September 11 attack as a horrific criminal act that calls for apprehending the culprits, using every device of intelligence and investigation possible. It could have gone to the United Nations to enlist the aid of other countries in the pursuit and apprehension of the terrorists.

We are

One-third of our military budget would annually provide clean water and sanitation facilities for the billion people in the world who have none.

For how long - we already provide a great deal of foreign aid to countries, and yet their poor continue to suffer

Once again - the US wins WWII and it seems to me that Germany and Japan are making it. Now that we have defeated the Soviet Union, again the defeated is still thriving. Why?

[river rat]

In war, you've got to kill em where you find them.

If you can't find the ones you most want to kill, you have to be satisfied with killing his friends, family and supporters...

War is ugly that way.... Can't understand why some folks think that war is the solution to their problems... Usually, it just creates a bigger problem for the loser.

I heard no outcry from the world - when the Taliban was killing innocent civilian ON PURPOSE... We should press forward and continue to keep unbearable pressure on the Taliban, bin Laden and his associates - attempting as best as possible to avoid "innocent" civilian deaths.

Give war a chance! It's what these folks demanded...
Semper Fi

[CatoRenasci]

No, Zinn is worse than an enemy. Having served to to defend America, but to defend socialism. His entire professional career has been an attempt to subvert the very values for which America stands. He is a traitor, every bit as much as X42.

You must understand that many communists served in WWII because the Soviet Union was attacked -- before the Hitler Stalin Pact of 1939 the Communists opposed Hilter, from the Pact through June 1941, they opposed War against Hitler -- their influence being especially baneful in France, but also in the US -- and after Hitler was attacked, they supported the War against Fascism to save the Soviet Union.

[TigersEye]

The phrase is so loose that President Truman, after the nuclear bomb obliterated the population of Hiroshima, could say: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."

And Truman was right. There weren't any 'civilians' in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Both were major munitions manufacturing centers and military bases. In Japan, during WWII, every 'citizen' considered themselves a warrior prepared to fight and die for the Empereror. As a nation they were steadfastly ready to die to the last man and woman.

Dresden as well was a munitions manufacturing city and the people who make arms are as much of an asset as the machines and materials. We were at war with the whole of Germany. The only innocents in Dresden might have been some Jews that hadn't been sent to death camps yet.

There are a number of Ghandi quotes that I really like. One that is little known is, to paraphrase "The most horrible act the British ever perpetrated on Indians was to disarm them." Ghandi was cool. He backed and blessed an army that fought a bloody war to success.

There is hardly a point in this long essay that isn't incorrect, misinterpreted, mischaracterized or just plain muddled thinking. I salute the man for serving his country when called! But if his current point of view comes from guilt for having done that duty he is now serving himself and his country poorly indeed.

I am rarely proud of politicians but I'm proud as punch that George W. Bush says "There will be no negotiations." and means it. This 'war' isn't just about "getting the ones who did it". Or rounding up all the ones who are thinking about being terrorists. It is also about sending a message that can't be misunderstood.