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To: Dataman
Perhaps, then, you could explain why the Jews didn't execute him. It wasn't because he was a gentile. The Jews not only decided that Jesus had to die, they tried to carry it out a couple of times and were not successful. True, they did slip up and kill other Jews that didn't speak Pharisee PC but it was illegal nonetheless and they were penalized for it.

Jesus was not seen as a state problem to the Romans. Pilate said he found no fault in the man and would have released Jesus save the frothing Jewish crowd.

No. Perhaps YOU can explain why the Jews didn't execute him, since you suggest that Pilate had no complaint with him? The Procurators of the time did NOT go out of their way to pacify Jews. Just the opposite.

All I have read so far is only your unsupported personal opinion. Some Caesars referred to themselves as god. How that qualifies as "many" is not readily apparent. The threat to Rome was Christians refused to acknowledge Caesar as God. Apparently the unconverted Jews had no problem giving lip service to Roman demands to secure their survival. Poor Mattathias, Judas the Hammer, Jonathan and John Hyrcanus, proud and faithful Jews who refused to burn incense to any pagan god. In only 150 years the Hasidim-turned-Pharisees had turned their backs on the reason for Purim.

Yes the Caesar's.... and to even such an extent as wanting their images placed inside the sanctuary. And yes, it seems some Jews did pay lip service to save their butts. Josephus being one! And a particular Rabbi whose name escapes me at the moment. They both, unknowing to the other chose to kiss Roman hiney by telling Vespasian that 'he' was the 'Star Prophecy'! lol

267 posted on 11/11/2001 3:57:42 AM PST by ET(end tyranny)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
No. Perhaps YOU can explain why the Jews didn't execute him, since you suggest that Pilate had no complaint with him? The Procurators of the time did NOT go out of their way to pacify Jews. Just the opposite.

It is likely that you are not aware that Pilate was already taken to the woodshed once by Caesar because the Jews (Jewish leadership, that is) were complaining about him. That's why Pilate washed his hands: He wouldn't kill an innocent man yet feared displeasing the crowd (whipped into a lather by the leadership) would endanger his political future. Pilate was also a known anti-semite (the PC term) and probably was not too concerned about allowing a Jew to be executed.

If this plan of action should be of men, it will be overthrown... arrested and executed is uhhh OVERTHROWN! The Messiah is supposed to reign as King David did...

Gamaliel went on to say that the followers scattered. I would say that the Christians multiplied, not scattered. You assume as well that Jesus stayed dead. You also assume-- and you are in good company-- that the Christ would overthrow the Roman government. Will not the Christ reign "in that day" as Isaiah says? Will there not be a thousand years in which there will be no need for one man to say to the other "Know the Lord" because they will all know him? Did not Jesus say that he will return to reign? Jesus spoke of another kingdom, too, that is not of this world.

Since you are oh so much more knowledgable than me, would you please point out the OLD TESTAMENT (Tanakh) verses where it speaks of a messiah that will come, be crucified, then return again, for a 'second attempt' at fulfilling prophecy. Thank you oh so much!

Do I detect an unteachable spirit? For the sake of the lurkers I will comply.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 5th.)

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 5th.)

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave?thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used?just as predicted?for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 11th.)

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 13th.)

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 15th.)

(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 9th.)

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 18th.)

(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment?in our lifetime.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 120.)

(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 5th.)

(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (I Kings 16:33-34).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10~).

(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously?and accurately, according to the eye-witness account?by a group of fifty prophets (II Kings 2:3-11).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 9th).

(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (II Chronicles 20).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 8th).

(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (I Kings 13:2 and II Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 13th).

Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)?that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.

Forgive the inclusive cut-and-paste. I must leave for now.

271 posted on 11/13/2001 3:33:20 AM PST by Dataman
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