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The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?
It Stands to Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 11/01/2001 5:38:53 AM PST by Khepera

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1 posted on 11/01/2001 5:38:53 AM PST by Khepera
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To: Khepera
I posted this in response to this piece which states religion is evil and should be banned.
2 posted on 11/01/2001 5:42:23 AM PST by Khepera
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To: Khepera
It is obvious, that when the secular state regulates religion, that the state lead killings in the name of a religion are only a very subserviance to secular violent means with a religious label.
3 posted on 11/01/2001 5:42:30 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: Khepera
more have been killed in the last 100 years in the name of athiesm than in all of the past 2000 years in the name of "God".
4 posted on 11/01/2001 5:49:31 AM PST by kpp_kpp
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To: Khepera
Most killing have been done in the name of political power and economics. War is just politics that has, as Emeril would say, "Kicked up a notch." Religion and other factors are just tools for getting the job done.
5 posted on 11/01/2001 5:50:29 AM PST by oyez
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To: lavaroise
"It is obvious, that when the secular state regulates religion, that the state lead killings in the name of a religion are only a very subserviance to secular violent means with a religious label."

Translation please!

6 posted on 11/01/2001 6:01:16 AM PST by Telit Likitis
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: GritsDaily
Fundamentalism kills.

First, define fundamentalism. Secondly, prove that ALL Fundamentalism kills- after all, is it not possible that SOME Fundamentalism kills, but not all? If you cannot prove that ALL Fundamentalism kills, then your second assertion, that Christian Fundamentalism kills, does not follow.

(For the record, I do not consider myself a Fundamentalist of any sort, but I do not like illogical broad assertions such as this one)

8 posted on 11/01/2001 6:09:21 AM PST by MWS
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To: Telit Likitis
Killing in the name of Allah is not subserviance to Allah. It is subserviance to killing, an Earthly secular mean. Subserviance to Allah would mean assessing the various Earthly powers and letting them compete for us. Self defense killing as a blessing ability to save one's life is no subserviance, it is a blessing given by God. On the other hand, killing in a purely unprovoked offensive manner is subserviance to killing to attain a pre-meditated goal of conquest of materials.

Muslims claim they kill in pre-meditated ways to spread the word of Allah, but that is a lie, because killing does not help spread the word, an abstract immaterial thing that is independent of material life.

9 posted on 11/01/2001 6:10:26 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: GritsDaily
anyone can call themselves a fundamentalist and twist the teachings of a belief (or lack thereof) to their own biases and hatreds. that makes for a twisted individual/group, no more.
10 posted on 11/01/2001 6:10:57 AM PST by kpp_kpp
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To: oyez
The history here is confused. First off, let's put this 'persecution of witches' to rest. People in the 15th and 16th centuries, although Christian, were highly superstitious. This superstition wasn't the fault of Christianity, but simply the *normal human condition* in most pre-modern human societies. Witches were accused of maliciously casting spells and hurting or killing people. People at that time *believed* you could be hurt by a spell. Witches were NOT being punished for being "anti-Christian," but for doing something that practically everyone thought posed an actual, real danger. Look at it in modern terms: the powder sent to the abortion clinics proved to be a hoax, but until it's proven otherwise, people take it as a serious threat. In those days, having no scientific understanding of medicine or physics, they took casting malicious spells to be real. The *intent* was to do evil, in any case, even if spells really didn't work.

As for Joan of Arc, she was a *political prisoner* of the British. The witchcraft charge was a smokescreen, but for the time it made sense - she admitted she heard voices, and wore men's clothing. In those days that was "proof" you were "a witch." Many crazy people were no doubt thought to be witches; again, that showed a lack of scientific understanding.

In the twentieth century, the case is *very* clear that both atheism and paganism have claimed far more lives than any Christian wrongdoing. Atheist Communism was the dominant murderous ideology of the 20th century. Josef Stalin murdered about 9,000,000 peasant farmers (the "kulaks") all over western and southwestern Russia. Mao-Tse-Tung murdered over 10,000,000 Chinese during the "Cultural Revolution" of the 1960s, not to mention the murders of Laotians and Cambodians under communism. The Nazis (who not only murdered 6,000,000 Jews, but another 4 million Christian Europeans, including over half the priests of Poland and many, many Polish Catholics, as well as German Christians who opposed him) were flat-out pagans who made explicit attempts to revive the Norse god worship.

11 posted on 11/01/2001 6:11:27 AM PST by ikanakattara
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To: kpp_kpp
anyone can call themselves a fundamentalist

So Islam really is a religion of peace???

12 posted on 11/01/2001 6:20:13 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: GritsDaily
Fundamentalism kills.

They are more likely to kill, that's for sure. They get all wound up in their hatred and some eventually strike out at non-believers. I think they are nutty, and they have a history of being extremely deadly.

13 posted on 11/01/2001 6:22:03 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: lavaroise
Thanks!
14 posted on 11/01/2001 6:24:58 AM PST by Telit Likitis
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To: Khepera
There will always be those who believe they have the right whether God given or dint by race of ideology to make everyone else life a misery.

If we were all the same colour all of one religion and all of one ideology there will always be those who will find what to them is a perfectly valid reason to kill there fellow man.

Tony

15 posted on 11/01/2001 6:29:19 AM PST by tonycavanagh
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To: kpp_kpp
more have been killed in the last 100 years in the name of athiesm than in all of the past 2000 years in the name of "God".

Really? More people have been killed in the name of "not having belief in any deities" in 100 years than in the name of "God" in 2000? Do you have any documentation for such?
16 posted on 11/01/2001 6:29:53 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Khepera
Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation.

Not really. The worship of the Master Race or of the Historical Dialectic filled the same psychological purpose for these organizations as the worship of Allah does for al-Qaeda.

17 posted on 11/01/2001 6:31:49 AM PST by steve-b
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: GritsDaily
The intellectual proof of this was the almost instant self-destruction by Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

You know nothing about the difference between secular and religious. Jerry and Pat are not religious, they are secular humanists potemkin preachers - much like the muslims. All they talk about is going to heaven so that people can feel good about themselves. They never talk about subserviance to God, they talk about humanist subserviance to physical well being in heaven.

Religion is about emancipation, Jewish emancipation from the Earthly god Pharoh of Egypt and Christian emancipation from the various states addressed in the New Testament - and in particular the Roman state. The Christian prayer is the basis of 1st amendment rights and communication independence from the state - an act rejecting the subserviance to the material state as sole originator of valuable information.

Secular religions are about subserviance to Earthly powers - Marxism is key. In the case of muslims, muslims subserve themselves to violence. That they claim it is in the name of Allah means nothing about religion, because it still makes them subserviant and needy to Earthly powers of violence - and not independent under God.

It's not because one wears a black leather jacket that he is a Nazi. It is not because they SAY it in the name of God that it is religious and not secular. Learn, grow up and go get a grip.

19 posted on 11/01/2001 6:42:04 AM PST by lavaroise
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To: GritsDaily
Fundamentalism; - Fanaticism; - It matters little exactly how we label it. Intolerence for your fellow man is the killer.

----- Arthur Koestler on fanaticism:

"The continuous disasters of man's history are mainly due to his excessive capacity and urge to become identified with a tribe, nation, church or cause, and to espouse its credo uncritically and enthusiastically, even if its tenets are contrary to reason, devoid of self-interest and detrimental to the claims of self-preservation."
"We are thus driven to the unfashionable conclusion that the trouble with our species is not an excess of aggression, but an excess capacity for fanatical devotion."

20 posted on 11/01/2001 6:46:03 AM PST by tpaine
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