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Who is covered by the Bill of Rights
Self | October 18, 2001 | Self

Posted on 10/18/2001 10:05:22 AM PDT by RebelDawg

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Open for discussion. I really want to hear the arguments on both sides of this issue.

Please post what stance you take on this issue and any facts that you have to support that stance.
1 posted on 10/18/2001 10:05:22 AM PDT by RebelDawg
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: RebelDawg
I believe your assessment on only CITIZENS have rights guaranteed by Constitution and Bill of Rights to be the correct one. How can we protect rights of those under dictatorships and wacko-elitist Arab rulers?
3 posted on 10/18/2001 10:11:07 AM PDT by RasterMaster
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To: RebelDawg
In general, SCOTUS has held that Constitutional Protections extend to resident and non-resident aliens, which is why a deportation hearing is held before sending an illegal home. It is why arrestees are read their Miranda rights. It is why attorneys are provided by the State if the alien cannot afford one.

All Rights pertain but rights do not extend beyond the border so your statement about foreign governments is moot.

4 posted on 10/18/2001 10:13:44 AM PDT by The Shootist
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To: RebelDawg
Should we overthrow other governments who violate their citizens first and second ammendment rights? What about China? Good you say??? Well what about England, Canada and Australia? they have clearly violated their citizens second ammendment right! Or is it that they do NOT have those rights and that the Bill of Rights ONLY covers citizens of the United States of America?

First of all the ONLY people who have Admendment rights are here in the united States. They have no 2nd rights to infringe in Britian, because there are no gun rights in Britain.
Secondly your highlighted words mentions "the people" not the "People of the united States" If they are here they are protected by the rights of this country. Why? I don't know! I guess it keeps us from murdering foreigners!

5 posted on 10/18/2001 10:15:29 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: RebelDawg
Mmmmmm...my first thought is that it would cover anyone who is on U.S. soil. After all, aren't foreign visitors obliged to obey our laws when they're here? If the BOR doesn't apply to them, how do any other laws?

That's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. Any legal eagles out there?
6 posted on 10/18/2001 10:15:48 AM PDT by alpowolf
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To: Manny Festo
The constitution enumerates rights to the federal government and limits its power - It conferes no rights to any person or group, but states that the governments purpose to to protect or God given rights. All the rights granted to thegovernment are detailed, all othwers are retained by the states and the people.

Not really contradicting you but adding another angle.

7 posted on 10/18/2001 10:16:44 AM PDT by artios
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To: RebelDawg
So all the references in the Bill of Rights to "the people" really means "the citizens"?

Look, I'm not sure I know what the answer is, but consider the following. Many over the years have argued that what is important about the bill of rights is that it didn't GRANT rights, it RECOGNIZED rights, rights that inherently belonged to people, by virtue of their being, well, people. As the Declaration says, "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights". Notice that the common construction of the amendments is "the right of . . . the people to . . . shall not be infringed", not "the right to.. . is granted to"

However, I don't see where it says we can't control who comes into the country, and deport non-citizens as we see fit.

Disclaimer:
I'm not a constitutional lawyer.
I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Harry K.

8 posted on 10/18/2001 10:17:42 AM PDT by HarryKnutszacke
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To: The Shootist
Ok, thanks for that info. i was wondering if there was a government document stating for a fact that these rights were extended to "visitors".

Could someone please post this for me?

Thank you! ;-)
9 posted on 10/18/2001 10:17:54 AM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: RebelDawg
Do you conclude that "the people" really means "the citizens?"
10 posted on 10/18/2001 10:18:24 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: RebelDawg
All persons within the borders of the USA are protected by our Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. This is why the Constitution refers to the people and persons and not citizens.
11 posted on 10/18/2001 10:20:43 AM PDT by CharacterCounts
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To: RasterMaster; RebelDawg
The BoR only enumerates Rights granted by GOD to all of mankind. The differentiation lies, for instance, in the Second Amendment. Only AMERICANS enjoy the RKBA legally! Dissenters must cite the document, of equivalent weight as the BoR, granting legal RKBA to any other nation. The only Rights we enjoy are the Rights we defend from abrogation by the government.

The terrorists likely exercised their First Amendment Right to political expression when they wrapped them selves in the American Flag. American flag wavers merely confuse the issue about patriotism. Exercise your uniquely American LEGAL RKBA!

12 posted on 10/18/2001 10:21:28 AM PDT by dhuffman@awod.com
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To: alpowolf
Very compelling thoughts. I've always sided with those who think that constitutional rights are guaranteed only to citizens.

It does appear that the SCOTUS has interpreted the constitution to apply to anyone on US soil. But what does this mean to US citizens traveling to other countries? If I visit Canada, do I in effect forfeit my constitutional rights?

13 posted on 10/18/2001 10:23:02 AM PDT by rogers21774
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To: Bommer
First of all the ONLY people who have Admendment rights are here in the united States. They have no 2nd rights to infringe in Britian, because there are no gun rights in Britain.
Thanks that is exactly what I had said. I hope you didn't think I was saying that they did have a second ammendment. That was the exact opposite of my point.
Secondly your highlighted words mentions "the people" not the "People of the united States" If they are here they are protected by the rights of this country. Why? I don't know! I guess it keeps us from murdering foreigners!
I don't read it that way. Do you have some other insight as to what "the people" refers to or just your own opinion?

Also you may wnat to read the Bill of Rights again. Theres nothing in there that even mentions murdering people foreign or otherwise. I think you must have been referring to the 10 commandments...
14 posted on 10/18/2001 10:24:29 AM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: RebelDawg
Since these rights are inalienable, they don't coem from the government, therefore cannot be limited to the governments jurisdiction. They come from God, and are limited to HIS domain.
15 posted on 10/18/2001 10:24:44 AM PDT by camle
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To: The Shootist
Correct. And it is for this same reason that when Americans travel abroad they do not carry their “rights” with them. Many countries treat resident and non-resident aliens as they would their citizens (except those with diplomatic immunity).
16 posted on 10/18/2001 10:25:31 AM PDT by thtr
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To: RebelDawg
From the constitution ... "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". Our future generations surely would include others other than our children who are currently not citizens. If it doesn't then we run the risk of defining our future in purely physical terms. In addition, our rights are from our creator and are inaleanable(sp?).
17 posted on 10/18/2001 10:26:05 AM PDT by gjenkins
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To: alpowolf
After all, aren't foreign visitors obliged to obey our laws when they're here? If the BOR doesn't apply to them, how do any other laws?

I'm no legal beagle but I'll give it a shot by suggesting that they (the foreigners) are subject to our laws and gain certain rights, not from the constitution, but from treaties with other countries which spell out understandings about how things will be done in certain cases.

I have no idea if I am correct about this but I'm guessing I'm on the right track. Anyone care to inform me about this?

18 posted on 10/18/2001 10:27:00 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: rogers21774
If I visit Canada, do I in effect forfeit my constitutional rights?

You forfeit your guarantee that those rights will not be infringed (at least to the extent that they're not infringed in the U.S.).

ALL humans have these rights, it's just that nearly all the governments of the world refuse to recognize and guarantee them to their citizens.

19 posted on 10/18/2001 10:27:06 AM PDT by freedomcrusader
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To: rogers21774
In effect you do. I know when I was in the Navy, we were always warned about port visits in countries that don't have agreements to let the U.S. govt handle offences committed by the sailors...like Turkey. We were warned that if you got busted, you would be tried under their law..."Midnight Express".
20 posted on 10/18/2001 10:28:24 AM PDT by alpowolf
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