Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Well, seeing as this discussion group dates back to March, I believe that Jim is aware of us! I think he likes having us do this here for a few reasons: it keeps much of the religious discussion in one place, and we do a pretty good job of keeping the discussion civil and policing those who get out of line.
In terms of justifying religious debate on a political activism site, I suggest you read the quote from John Adams at the top of the thread. A desire for political reform entails some idea of what you want to reform things to. Religion is the foundation for our culture, and discussion of religion and philosophy are part of how we as a nation decide what sort of country we are going to become.
Jim has stated on a few occasions that the long term goal is to set up multiple forums with varying topics, so that the main forum will remain hard news and political issues. When this does finally happen, I expect we'll migrate over to one of the new FR forums. In the meantime, our presence here is certainly no more burdensome on the server than the Freeoples (former L.dotters), Pray For Bush, The Guild, and other ongoing discussion groups. And we hardly talk about cheese at all here! ;o)
”[22] And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. [23] And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? [24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [26] And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. [27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. [30] Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." - Mk 3:22-30
In this passage the scribes are accusing Jesus of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). Verses 23 through 29 contains Jesus’ response to their accusation culminating in the dire warning of verse 29. Verse 30 then explains why He gave out that warning, “Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.”
This is saying one of two things, either a general warning about attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, or a more specific warning about attributing the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ to Satan.
I believe the text clearly points to the latter. So we cannot commit this sin today since Jesus isn’t present in the flesh.
-ksen
Gentiles were never under the old system.
There was no issue about the Sabbath in the bible. Everyone kept it.
In Romans 14:5-6, Paul isn't talking about the sabbath. He never says "sabbath" in the whole letter. I won't go into because it's in that link, but he was talking about the a Roman practice of avoiding of eating meat on certain days.
In Galatians 4:9-11, again Paul isn't talking about the sabbath. It's never mentioned. He's talking superstisious practices being done on certain days before they turned to God. Again, it's outlined in the link provided.
U.S. currency has 'graven images' on it. Avoid sin: send that 'debbil' money to angelo.
When you consider that both paper and real money are made by stamping with dies that are engraved with images, your point becomes even stronger.
Our government even has a whole department devoted to engraving.
SD
I meant to reply to this yesterday, but could not access FR for some reason.
I think I understand your angle here. You are using examples of commandements being broken by people who claim to be glorifying God, correct? That being said, let me rephrase what I said before about bowing at the altar. I am not worshipping a statue or the altar itself, I am bowing down in reverence before God the Father, the Holy Spirit and the present Jesus Christ. I can understand how you would not be able to see the difference from your point of view. One would have to believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist to understand.
Can't say that I've ever done that or have ever seen that.
Let's approach this another way. This is going to seem indelicate because I need to make a point. Suppose someone were to make a statue of Jesus (or what they thought Jesus looked like) doing something indelicate, like going to the bathroom. They put it up in their church because they were inspired by it to worship the "true" Jesus.
Would this be okay?
First of all, few people are inspired by such images to worship God. The entire subject matter is not fit for public discussion and would seem profane to many. However, if such an image would be required to convince certain people of the absolute reality of the Incarnation, the idea that Jesus was truly a man, then I would be in favor.
SD
Didn't take it that way ... no worries.
Um, thank you, drive thru!
SD
Becky, Becky, Becky. Really, now.
Douglas, what Becky refers to is that the "Ten Commandments" given in the Bible are nowhere numbered. The Catholics and Orthodox group them differently than the Protestants do. Nobody leaves anything out, it mainly rests on the Protestants making one of "I am the Lord your God, have no other Gods before me" and a second one of "make no graven images." They use this as a bludgeon to "prove" that Catholics worship graven images, since we don't even have a Commandment against it.
The Catholics have this crazy notion that the prohibition of graven images is part of the same first Commandment about not having other gods. We separate the coveting of neighbors wife and property as two commandments, mirroring the commandments against adultery and theft.
It is shameful that Protestants attempt to make of these differing groupings something scandalous.
SD
” [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” – Ga 3:16-25
Why did God give the Law? In verse 19 Paul says that it was added because of transgressions “till the seed [Christ, see v. 16] should come.”
Also in verse 24 Paul tells us that the Law was to act as our schoolmaster in order to bring us to Jesus. IOW, the Law was given so that we would realize how bad our sinful condition really is, and to help us recognize our need for a Saviour. Like I heard a pastor say once, “You gotta get ‘em lost to get ‘em saved!”
Verse 25 says that once we have faith in Christ that we are no longer under the schoolmaster [the Law, see v. 24]. Now if the Sabbath is part of the Law, which I am assuming you believe to be the case, if I am wrong please correct me, verse 25 clearly states that we are no longer bound by it.
-ksen
Very good points. I think a lot of folks get so hung up on the idea of the evil Catholics worhipping actual stone images that they forget that idols can be in our minds as well.
But, I find the highlighted portion interesting. Don't you, in fact, believe that you are "saved" just by a one-time act of "believing in God"? And that no matter what you do, you will still be saved?
SD
We bless holy items (like a statue) so that they will serve well to remind us of our faith. The item gains no magic power, the blessing doesn't change the status of the item. It is, rather, we who are dedicating the statue to help us in our faith.
This also calls to rememberance on Easter all the little kids took their Easter baskets full of candy and (and grandma always put some hard boiled eggs in our baskets too) eggs down to the alter after mass and the priest sprinkled them with holy water and blessed them. Grandma always made us eat blessed hard boiled eggs for breakfast when we got back to her house after mass. Do you all still do this?
At my Church there is a blessing of Easter baskets done on the day before Easter. Again, this is just us asking God to bless the food we are going to eat and to protect those who will eat it and to help us in our faith. Many folks say grace bfore a meal, this is just a little more formalized, being blessed by a priest, because of the importance of the Easter celebration.
Eggs can be included. Eggs are new life and as such they were included in pagan religion as symbols of such. What else do we celebrate at Easter if not new life, eternal life? The symbol of the egg still serves to remind us of this, pagan origins notwithstanding.
I fail to see how getting our food blessed is idol worship in any way.
SD
is this not worshipping idols?
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