The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[vmatt]

Do you also claim that there are no pastors or teachers?

That's what I claim. They are all being blown about by every wind of doctrine.

In what way are they lacking or unconvincing?

In what are they not? They can't even agree on the basics of doctrine. They have zero signs which should follow those that believe, like tongues. Ever spoke in tongues? I have.

There is coming a time when great signs and wonders will be done, but they won't be from God.

I believe that has already happened. And I don't mean great signs. A little healing as many claim but lie. How about charity? I see that lacking just among us here. We may be brothers but we act sometimes like Cain and Abel. At least we are discussing eternity anyway. That's why I'm here, I have a great deal of respect for ANYONE attempting to learn the word of God.

Tongues, Knowledge, and Prophecies were all Revelatory gifts. They were needed at the time because the NT was not yet complete. The churches did not have the complete testimony from God. Now we do, so those Revelatory gifts have passed away.

This you are terribly mistaken and assuming in. The instant indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is available to anyone right now this moment. Yet many of you don't understand this small thing.

[vmatt]

Do you also claim that there are no pastors or teachers?

That's what I claim. They are all being blown about by every wind of doctrine.

In what way are they lacking or unconvincing?

In what are they not? They can't even agree on the basics of doctrine. They have zero signs which should follow those that believe, like tongues. Ever spoke in tongues? I have.

There is coming a time when great signs and wonders will be done, but they won't be from God.

I believe that has already happened. And I don't mean great signs. A little healing as many claim but lie. How about charity? I see that lacking just among us here. We may be brothers but we act sometimes like Cain and Abel. At least we are discussing eternity anyway. That's why I'm here, I have a great deal of respect for ANYONE attempting to learn the word of God.

Tongues, Knowledge, and Prophecies were all Revelatory gifts. They were needed at the time because the NT was not yet complete. The churches did not have the complete testimony from God. Now we do, so those Revelatory gifts have passed away.

This you are terribly mistaken and assuming in. The instant indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is available to anyone right now this moment. Yet many of you don't understand this small thing.

[vmatt]

Do you also claim that there are no pastors or teachers?

That's what I claim. They are all being blown about by every wind of doctrine.

In what way are they lacking or unconvincing?

In what are they not? They can't even agree on the basics of doctrine. They have zero signs which should follow those that believe, like tongues. Ever spoke in tongues? I have.

There is coming a time when great signs and wonders will be done, but they won't be from God.

I believe that has already happened. And I don't mean great signs. A little healing as many claim but lie. How about charity? I see that lacking just among us here. We may be brothers but we act sometimes like Cain and Abel. At least we are discussing eternity anyway. That's why I'm here, I have a great deal of respect for ANYONE attempting to learn the word of God.

Tongues, Knowledge, and Prophecies were all Revelatory gifts. They were needed at the time because the NT was not yet complete. The churches did not have the complete testimony from God. Now we do, so those Revelatory gifts have passed away.

This you are terribly mistaken and assuming in. The instant indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is available to anyone right now this moment. Yet many of you don't understand this small thing.

[SoothingDave]

If that's the standard, then what do you make of John 3:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot, see the kingdom of God

Where he says "truly truly" (verily verily) and then as to say this at least 3 or 4 times and explain it to Nicodemus. Why not take this one literally too?

We do. One must be baptised to see the kingdom of God.

SD

[al_c]

I'll pass on the sign up for this board. But good job anyway ... I'm sure it'll be useful.

[vmatt]

I'm sorry, was working offline and didn't realize it would cache or whatever. Wierd.

[DouglasKC]

I just realized that the whole passage in John might not have anything might not have anything to do with communion anyways:

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and, the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The BREAD is his flesh, which he is going to give for the life of the world. It seems that he's talking about his crucification here. He is the bread, come down from heaven, to be sacrificed on on the cross. would that mean that communion is a symbolic way of remembering his sacrifice on the cross?

[DouglasKC]

We do. One must be baptised to see the kingdom of God.

LOL...I'll agree with you there, but that's not the point.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

:)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

bump

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

One can be saved and still walking after the flesh and not following God. For them, eternal life is not promised. It comes down to being a sheep.

So you believe one can loose their salvation? If so were do you draw the line?

BigMack

[ksen]

In what are they not? They can't even agree on the basics of doctrine. They have zero signs which should follow those that believe, like tongues. Ever spoke in tongues? I have.

Where do you find Scriptural support for what passes for tongues today?

-ksen

[JohnnyM]

"One can be saved and still walking after the flesh and not following God. For them, eternal life is not promised. It comes down to being a sheep. One must hear, obey and follow or one isn't a sheep."

So your saying you can change from a sheep to a non-sheep on the fly. That you can cease to be a sheep, then just as suddenly be a sheep. That Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient enough to save you the first time, then why go back to it, if it won't be sufficient. You can't cease being a sheep. It's impossible. There is nowhere in Scripture where a sheep ceases to be a sheep or is turned into a goat. There is no where in Scripture, where a sheep who is lost ceased to be a part of His fold. We give you Scripture to refute your claims. You are clinging to a misinterpretation of Romans and not using other Scripture to back it up. If you can lose your salvation, you are saying Christ's death on the Cross was insufficient. That it was as imperfect as the sacrifices in the OT. That it must be done year after year in order to make you clean. Don't you see, that Christ's death on the Cross was the perfect sacrifice. That all your sins were nailed on that cross with him. That he took your place on the cross. That he died for your sins so that you wouldn't have to. Your sins are covered. The price has been paid in full, and there is nothing you can do change that. Once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour you accept His sacrifice for you. You are clean.

JM

[ksen]

So you believe one can loose their salvation? If so were do you draw the line?

I don't think Havoc is saying that you can lose your Salvation, but you can lose out on Eternal Life.

What's the difference? I don't know. Hopefully Havoc will come on and tell us what the difference is between Salvation and Eternal Life. If Salvation isn't salvation from going to Hell than what is it Salvation from?

-ksen

[SoothingDave]

The BREAD is his flesh, which he is going to give for the life of the world. It seems that he's talking about his crucification here. He is the bread, come down from heaven, to be sacrificed on on the cross. would that mean that communion is a symbolic way of remembering his sacrifice on the cross?

Much more than symbolic. But yes, you are correct. When we celebrate the Mass we re-present to the Father the perfect sacrifice of His Son. We participate in the sacrifice and participate in the sacrificial meal. Look at the passover account. The lamb must be eaten. If that is a prefigurement of Christ on the Cross (which it is) then we must also partcipate in eating the Lamb. How do we do this?

God provides. When we bring to mind the work of Christ, offer it to the Father along with our meager lives, God touches our altars and transforms the bread and wine into truly the Body and Blood of Christ. It is at once a meal and a sacrifice. It is the unbloody representation of the Crucifixion, the only acceptable sacrifice. It all ties together in majesty.

It is so much more than a "memorial" serice, something we do to remind ourselves of Christ's action. It is tapping into this very power, this very moment which healed the rift between man and God, and gaining nourishment from it, as God once agains pours Himself out for us.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don't think Havoc is saying that you can lose your Salvation, but you can lose out on Eternal Life.

What's the difference? I don't know. Hopefully Havoc will come on and tell us what the difference is between Salvation and Eternal Life. If Salvation isn't salvation from going to Hell than what is it Salvation from?

Most of the time I agree with Havoc, but on this.....

I don't need Havoc to tell me what the difference is, I know, there is none.

BigMack

[Havoc]

Yes I know the promise is to the sheep, and I am saying the sheep are the ones who are saved.

You've still missed the point. The sheep are not merely the saved. The sheep are those that hear and obey/follow. Look at romans 8 again. No condemnation for those who are saved and walking in the Spirit of God rather than after the flesh. The Sheep are those who are saved and hearing/obeying (ie following God in the Spirit). The sheep are not the ones who are saved and do their own thing. Thus, 'not every man that cryeth Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.' The Kingdom is for those who overcome. And, once again, overcomers are not those who give in to that which they are trying to overcome.

[JohnnyM]

so what happens if God sees me as a sheep and I sin and die without asking for forgiveness. Do I then go to hell???

JM

[dadwags]

#6059
"I can't pick up a horse . Big Mack lies a lot !"
This sort of illustrates some of the problems that we have with interpreting Scripture,IMVHO. I think Big Mack was speaking of you going somewhere to accept delivery of a horse, or something like that, so he said you wen to "pick up a horse" . Then the posters started having fun with that, as if it meant that you were physically lifting a horse [not stealing it :)].
If common statements in "modern everyday language can be interpreted in different ways, just think how much more translations of translations of translations (Hebrew -Greek-Latin-English) can be subject to inaccurate interpretation .
that's why Christ provided His Church with a magisterium .

[OLD REGGIE]

How about Paul:

"[19] For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you." - I Cor 9:19-23

Is that who you were thinking of?

No. This is where the expression "All things to all men" originated.

Frankly, I expected to get some feedback from the Catholic crew. There is an old canard that the Jesuits originated this expression. I expected to be lambasted in advance of saying anything.

To the best of my knowledge it originated with Machiavelli in his work The Prince.