Kelly: In the face of such evil, pacifism is immoral

SeattleTimes ^ | 26 Sept. 2001 | Michael Kelly

[FReethesheeples]

Right on target!!

[ObfusGate]

First, let me note that I share your convictin that we should defend (especially in this country) an individual's right to freedom of conscience even in choosing to be a pacifist.

You are also correct that I do make a claim to absolute status for some of what I argue. Some of what I argue is (in my opinion ;-) absolute truth. Not because I agrue it, but because it is true whether we choose to believe it or not. For example, Jesus died to defeat sin and death.

It might be a good to remember that not all martyrs through history have been pacifists. Many have been soldiers and 'men of war' who have died in the defense of others and in the defense of freedom—protecting even the rights of those who choose to be pacifists.

[WriteOn]

couldn't resist. i'll admit, the butthead part was a little strong.

[hopespringseternal]

What's that say about the religious in this country: priests, nuns, bishops, ministers, etc. It's a ridiculous slam at those who hold strong religious convictions to claim that they are therefore pro-terrorist.

Being personally pacifist is a long way from demanding it as foreign policy.

Orwell's words were directed at those who seek to change national policy, not those who choose pacifism for themselves.

[ThreeOfSeven]

Thanks for the clarification.

[ignatz_q]

I'm not yelling at anyone, and I'm not in agreement with the Pope on this issue (or usually, for that matter). I'm merely pointing out that the Pope's statements on this issue fall into the category of "evil" as pointed out in this article, and that I'm not so ready to condemn someone for their faith-based beliefs.

Funny, there used to be a time when FReepers were pretty serious about letting people alone who are harrassed for their Christian views... LOL

[RobFromGa]

But, all Arab-Muslim Terrorists are, first and foremost, Terrorists.

And zero non-Arabs are Arab-Muslim Terrorists.

And zero non-Muslims are Arab-Muslim Terrorists/

Ergo, all Arabs are more suspect than Non-Arabs.

Ergo, all Muslims are more suspect than Non-Muslims.

[KC Burke]

The devil is in the details. The specifics make all the difference as Burke would say.

First we must distinguish between those that hold Pacifism for convienience, personal whim, or political reasons from those who hold it due to religious office or long standing membership in a faith calling for such individuals to take that personal stand. For example, many Seventh Day Adventists have servered their country faithfully during time of war as medics. In fact they are noted for exemplarary service in this matter. The Society of Freinds has adherents that have been consistant with certain tenants in this regard for generations. This distinction makes the blanket claim of evil inconsistant with American tradition.

Secondly, we must look at Pacifists and distinquish those that advocate it for the nation in rhe face of ultimate defense and those who hold it on individual grounds only. The Pacifist that does such service as his country asks of him, save bearing arms, due to his religious heritage takes a lot of heat.

[RobFromGa]

You want to keep on waiting for the right time?

I suspect that there would never be an action atrocious enough for you and you ilk. Real Americans will just have to pick up the slack for people like you. So you can continue to have the freedom to post your feelings on Free Republic in Free America. No thanks required, we're used to coddling weak Americans/

[RobFromGa]

We are to obey God.

Yeah, well he must have told Bush that we should kill these bast**ds and defend Freedom and not give in to Terrorists.

What did God tell you and when? What were his exact words?

[sargon]

You want to keep on waiting for the right time?

Yes. So does President Bush, apparently. Don't you? Or you would prefer rashness, perhaps?

Don't worry, the "right time" is rapidly approaching...

[HiTech RedNeck]

the sheep and oxen could be retrieved

I'd hate to have to chase them! And can we assume everyone in the surrounding crowd -- many of whom brought their own livestock -- was honest? And why a whip just to overturn tables, when he could as well have pushed the tables over? And no money fell together from adjacent tables?

Given that Jesus had the power of passing through a hostile crowd and escaping... I don't take the lack of charges from this event as proof of anything. From God's point of view, His Son would have had the perfect right to directly assail the moneychangers, but of course the Pharisees and Sadducees would have misunderstood. But his time had not yet come.

[ObfusGate]

Hey x,

I'd still like to know if you believe God would expect me to stand by and watch as someone kills my children. Or should I defend them?

Regards

[Jack Barbara]

"What I'm saying is that we are assembling the evidence that will tell us, in a way that the world will fully concur with us, who is responsible for this. And when we have done that, we will announce it. And at that point, we will go after that group, that network, and those who have harbored, supported and aided that network, to rip the network up. And when we're through with that network, we will continue with a global assault against terrorism in general." -- Colon Powell

This will be a long and protracted war... After we have killed bin-Laden, there will be others we will kill. Pacifists are not with us, and therefore give aid to the evil-doers. The pacifists are the enemy among us and will be targeted as such.

[HiTech RedNeck]

I am sorry to break to you the news that ignoring danger of destruction to your fellow man, is not commanded by God, in fact the opposite.

It isn't "self defense." It's neighbor defense.

[ObfusGate]

No, Jack, the pacifists are not the enemy. Our constitution gives them as much right to express their opinion as it does you. You may not agree with them, but that is the nature of living in a free society. To abandon that principle is to turn to the Taliban model.