Posted on 07/02/2020 10:28:13 AM PDT by buckalfa
Using seat belts in automobiles and wearing helmets when riding motorcycles should be the driver/rider’s choice.
And if not wearing masks only affected the person who chose not to wear them, like seat belts and helmets, I'd agree that it should just be a personal choice. Unfortunately people who choose not to wear a mask are more likely to transmit the virus to someone else than a masked person is. One person's right to swing his fist ends where another's nose begins.
Let's differentiate ourselves from the emotional driven leftists who seek to control us with fear
I understand what you're saying but refusing to take reasonable precautions and just pretending that the virus doesn't exist doesn't seem to be a logical solution either. Right now the US has 8,732 cases per million compared to South Korea's 254 cases per million, Japan's 151 cases per million, and Taiwan's 19 cases per million. Most Koreans, Japanese, and Taiwanese live in dense urban areas where disease spreads easily, yet they are doing better than the US at containing this thing. What do all these countries have in common? A culture of wearing masks during pandemics.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
I look forward to voting for Trump again in November. In order to do that I have to be alive, since the Democrats have the corpse vote sewn up tighter than a miser's purse strings. More importantly, it will be easier for Trump to be re-elected the lower America's CV numbers are. The lower the CV numbers the more confidence people will have in the economy and the less chance we will have of a second wave of shutdowns. Just my 0.02.
Study #1 states "A larger study is needed to definitively establish noninferiority of no mask use." and "Of the 8 symptoms recorded daily, subjects in the mask group were significantly more likely to experience headache during the study period (P < .05)."
Headaches? I always thought the anti-mask line was that masks limited oxygen intake (somehow I still manage to carry groceries up 2 flights of stairs while wearing one though). I'll take the headaches over the risk of lung damage and blood clots, though.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/what-coronavirus-does-to-the-lungs
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronavirus-and-bloodclots
Study #2 states "There is some evidence to support the wearing of masks or respirators during illness to protect others, and public health emphasis on mask wearing during illness may help to reduce influenza virus transmission. There are fewer data to support the use of masks or respirators to prevent becoming infected."
I'm sure you are aware of the difference between "fewer" and "none".
Study #3 states "One household trial found that mask wearing coupled with hand sanitiser use reduced secondary transmission of upper respiratory infection influenza-like illness laboratory-confirmed influenza compared with education;hand sanitiser alone resulted in no reduction. One hospital-based trial found a lower rate of clinical respiratory illness associated with non-fit-tested N95 respirator use compared with medical masks. Eight of nine retrospective observational studies found that mask and ⁄ or respirator use was independently associated with a reduced risk of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)....Some evidence suggests that mask use is best undertaken as part of a package of personal protection especially hand hygiene. The effectiveness of masks and respirators is likely linked to early,consistent and correct usage."
In other words, mask use is not a substitute for washing your hands and not touching your face, but most people knew that already.
Studies #4-6 compare the effectiveness of N-95 masks vs surgical masks, not viral transmission in a masked vs unmasked population.
Funny that one of your studies should mention Japan. Despite having a higher population density than America Japan has 151 cases per million, South Korea has 254 cases per million, and Taiwan has just 19 cases per million. The US? 8,732 cases per million. There could be and probably are other factors involved, but right now it looks like their culture of high mask use is working out better for them than our more relaxed culture is for us. Maybe not everything that is legal under state and federal law is necessarily a good idea.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
As always, I appreciate the civil tone of your posts.
Healthy people don’t need to wear masks. The efficacy of masks has not been demonstrated. In fact, negative effects that occur due to mask-wearing, such as oxygen deprivation, have been demonstrated. A nose, covered or uncovered, comes into contact with many things, good and bad, as it breathes its way through life while, hopefully, rarely encountering a fist.
The aforementioned Asian countries also have a much lower rate of comorbidity factors such as obesity, and diabetes so simply attributing their rates solely to masks is really accurate. What else do those cultures have in common? They eat with chopsticks. Correlation is not causation.
It would also be nice to have a consistent standard across the board of how coronavirus cases and deaths are counted. Our much more liberal methodology of counting CV cases and deaths puts the US figures highly into question, especially when we are told by the "authorities" that one does not even need to be tested or confirmed as having the virus in order to be counted as someone who has died from it.
Even if one accepts the number of deaths being touted by the CDC as accurate, if you strip out the highly-avoidable nursing home fatalities, this is a bad flu season. This virus is not worthy of the destruction we have wrought on the economy and on people's lives as a result of locking down.
My original comment was simply that there isn't a binary choice between wearing masks and dying. For those who are in a vulnerable population; mask up, stay inside and protect yourself. That doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to live under house arrest or to stop living our lives as free people.
I have no problem wearing a mask in a private business establishment if that is what is mandated by the business owner (even though it is really just theater), but I am not going to wear a mask outdoors. If that frightens any of the karens, then they should avoid those of us who aren't wearing masks outdoors.
The efficacy of masks has not been demonstrated.
Let's look at the studies perfect_rovian_storm was kind enough to provide me with.
"A larger study is needed to definitively establish noninferiority of no mask use."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/
""There is some evidence to support the wearing of masks or respirators during illness to protect others, and public health emphasis on mask wearing during illness may help to reduce influenza virus transmission. There are fewer data to support the use of masks or respirators to prevent becoming infected."
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic-review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05
""One household trial found that mask wearing coupled with hand sanitiser use reduced secondary transmission of upper respiratory infection influenza-like illness laboratory-confirmed influenza compared with education;hand sanitiser alone resulted in no reduction...Eight of nine retrospective observational studies found that mask and ⁄ or respirator use was independently associated with a reduced risk of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)....Some evidence suggests that mask use is best undertaken as part of a package of personal protection especially hand hygiene. The effectiveness of masks and respirators is likely linked to early,consistent and correct usage."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x
In fact, negative effects that occur due to mask-wearing, such as oxygen deprivation, have been demonstrated.
I've carried heavy groceries up two flights of stairs while wearing a mask. Seems to me if masks caused oxygen deprivation I wouldn't be able to do that. Unless I'm secretly some kind of superhuman mutant.
But people do have to breathe...
And masks do not stop you from breathing. I have carried heavy groceries up two flights of stairs with a mask on. No breathing problems. The studies showing mask-induced hypoxia dealt with N-95 respirators, not the cloth masks worn by most people, and you have to wear them for a longer period of time than most people do during a quick run to the grocery store.
...and they have to go out and do certain things to survive.
The best way to prevent a second wave of lockdowns, and therefore ensuring that people can "go out and do certain things to survive" is to contain the spread of the virus as much as possible. That would include wearing a mask. Already we are seeing states like California, Texas, and Florida reversing the re-opening of their economies and shutting down bars and gyms again. Nobody wants the economy shut down again. Nobody here wants the Dems to have high CV case numbers to use against PDJT in November.
You have no right to do this. If we were in a Spanish Flu part II situation it might be justified, but the numbers we're seeing are not even enough to justify a mild anxiety for 95% of the population.
You're right: this is not the Spanish Flu part II. The Spanish Flu took the summer of 1918 off in terms of transmission. It is now summer and yet we are seeing about 50,000 new cases per day, most of which are concentrated in the warm and sunny southern states. Warm temperatures and sunlight appear to have less of an effect on CV than on the Spanish Flu. Remember how last month the flubros and flubras were touting sunlight as destroying the coronavirus? Yeah, those predictions didn't age well, but while they lasted they gave many folks in the southern states a false sense of security. Not saying there weren't other factors involved in the surge of cases, like the BLM protests, but it definitely didn't help. Emergency rooms in Houston are already at capacity and unless we make an effort to contain the virus it will be worse in the fall and therefore worse for PDJT's chances of re-election.
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
https://www.foxnews.com/media/houston-doctor-bill-fisher-coronavirus-icu-capacity
Additionally, it is well-established that virtually zero of the masks/face coverings protect the wearer from any viral threat, but only, in theory, protect others from the wearer.
Let's say for the sake of argument that that is true. You still have a duty to protect those who might come in contact with you. During World Wars I and II, Americans faced rationing, conscription, and all other manner of violations of their individual rights. Being asked to wear a little bit of cloth is a pretty small sacrifice to make in comparison. Argue for individual rights all you want but there are times when Americans need to come together to fight a common enemy. This is one of those times. President Trump himself has described the virus as the "invisible enemy" and we are at war with it as if it were an invading army.
Well, the vast majority of the people that you want to force to wear masks are either virus-free, or have already been exposed and are now immune and not infectious. So what is the rationale for forcing them to wear a mask? Once again - just for your benefit, just to allay your fears and give you some false sense of safety.
The problem with that is there is no way of knowing who has the virus and who doesn't with testing still at only 11.3% of the US population. If you look at the FOX link you'll notice many of those who tested positive were asymptomatic. Just because you feel fine doesn't mean you are not contagious.
For people under 65 who have no serious health conditions, this virus is less dangerous than your average flu.
I know someone who had COVID. Fit, healthy guy, not in the high-risk age group, no pre-existing conditions. Didn't stop him from spending 2 weeks in the hospital. 2 months later he's still not at 100%. Never heard of the common flu doing that to a healthy young person. There is also the risk of lung damage and blood clots caused by this virus. Never heard of the common flu causing blood clots either.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/what-coronavirus-does-to-the-lungs
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronavirus-and-bloodclots
Vulnerable people should be encouraged to self-quarantine, and the rest of us should go about our lives.
By all means, go about your life. Just please wear a mask while you do so.
The original point was that comparing drunk driving to not wearing a mask was a grossly false analogy. And it is. Your wall of text doesn’t change that.
You are demanding that healthy non-infectious people wear masks to “prevent” infection. It really is that simple. If you can’t see the absurdity in that, then you are simply not capable of recognizing absurdity.
And yeah, I know, someone floated the idea at some point that asymptomatic people can spread the virus. They also floated the idea at one point that our dogs and cats could spread the virus. Remember that? They also said we’d see 2 million dead by summer. Remember that? They also said “15 days to flatten the curve!” Remember that? that was about 4 months ago. They also said that many people would die because we didn’t have enough ventilators. Remember that? That was before we found out that ventilators don’t do jack for this disease except kill the patient.
We don’t have hard, dependable data on any of this crap. Even the death totals are suspect. But we’re supposed to go running around with our hair on fire every time some quack makes a new claim, and pretend that we can’t see that this virus isn’t nearly the plague it was made out to be.
The original point was that comparing drunk driving to not wearing a mask was a grossly false analogy.
When drunk driving laws were first proposed they too were considered a violation of individual rights. And they would be if drunk driving only ever killed the drunk. But of course many drunk drivers also kill other people with their "lifestyle choice" when it would be a minor inconvenience for them to stay sober or call an Uber. Similarly, refusing to wear a mask is endangering others while wearing a mask is a minor inconvenience. In the 1905 Supreme Court case Jacobsen vs. Massachusetts, which was a dispute over compulsory vaccination, the majority opinion was that "the liberty secured by the Constitution to every person … does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times and in all circumstances wholly freed from restraint … it was the duty of the constituted authorities primarily to keep in view the welfare, comfort and safety of the many, and not permit the interests of the many to be subordinated to the wishes or convenience of the few...it is equally true that in every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."
https://www.encyclopedia.com/education/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/landmark-public-health-laws-and-court-decisions
Without adequate testing we don't know who is "healthy non-infectious" and who isn't. If you looked at the FOX link I provided in my last post to you you would see that 20% of the asymptomatic folks tested positive. The science behind asymptomatic transmission is well-established.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200708/Half-of-coronavirus-disease-cases-could-be-caused-by-e28098silent-spreaderse28099.aspx
Sorry about the wall of text, but I wanted to give your arguments the consideration they deserved. If you have any links to support your claims feel free to share them.
You know, we've spent literally YEARS here on FR demonstrating how unreliable our current news media is, both through their misinterpretation of data and their willingness to lie, and yet there are still those of you who accept as gospel every ridiculous study that they report on, even when that study contradicts the one they reported on last week, and doesn't in any way match the real world data we're seeing all around us.
If that is true then it should be easy to find links to support your claims. As I mentioned earlier I know a guy who had it and wreaked havoc on his body that far exceeds what the common flu would do. My relatives in Florida and my friend in Texas say things are getting pretty bad over there too. That's the "real world data" I'm seeing and hearing right now. If you want to change my mind you're going to have to provide me with facts, not just your opinion.
If their modeling and reporting were ever correct, we would have seen 2 million dead by now.
Those models were based on the assumption that Americans wouldn't lock down even temporarily and follow social distancing guidelines.
Either way, it is YOUR choice to believe every half-baked study and live in fear.
Sorry if this offends you, but I also choose to wear a seatbelt whenever I drive. Living in fear or just taking reasonable precautions? You decide.
You have no business demanding that healthy people wear masks on the mere computer-modeled possibility that they might infect someone, any more than people with peanut allergies have the right to demand that all people wear masks in case there are peanut eaters among them.
The asymptomatic COVID-positive people mentioned in the FOX link I sent you are not a computer model. They are "the real world data we're seeing all around us". And funnily enough quite a bit of food I've bought over the years contains the warning that it was manufactured on the same equipment as products containing peanuts. Because the lives of those with peanut allergies trump the minor cost and inconvenience the food companies incur by printing that warning.
All lives matter.
Look, you go ahead and believe whatever garbage you want, and cower in whatever corner you choose. I will choose to believe what I see with my own eyes rather than all of these theoretical scenarios that every Tom, Dick and Harry with his hand out for grants is putting out. Obviously I can’t make you see it, but your argument for the muzzling of the USA simply does not hold water.
So I take it then that you have no evidence to support your claims, that I’m just supposed to take what you say on blind faith?
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