[Kalamata]

>>Kalamata: “Our Founding Fathers created our great nation in spite of many of the so-called “Enlightenment” thinkers. Even the heavy influence of the blasphemous Christ-mocker, Thomas Paine, was not enough to sway our framers away from establishing a Christian nation which lasted for nearly two centuries, until the corrupting influence of ACLU, Marx and Darwin finally took hold. This is Paine mocking Christ, the Virgin Birth, and the genealogies of Matthew and Luke:...”
>>Joey said: “I “get” that you don’t like Paine and some European Enlightenment figures. Unlike most Founders Paine was not popular with Americans after the war. But during the Revolutionary War Paine not only helped explain it to Americans, he also helped negotiate millions of dollars in foreign aid from European countries.”

Benedict Arnold was a war hero, Joey.

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>>Joey said: “Paine’s religious views did not reflect those of any other Founders I can think of.”

It was most foolish of Paine to attack the faith that had sustained the colonists since they first arrived in America.

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>>Kalamata: “Thankfully, the great majority of our Framers were devout Christians, or this nation would have been destroyed from within before the ink was dry on the Constitution.”
>>Joey said: “Agreed.

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>>Kalamata: “The scientific revolution began in the Renaissance with the discoveries by Christians such as Kepler, Bacon, Pascal, Boyle, Steno, Hooke, Harvey, Huygens, Copernicus, Newton, Linnaeus, Herschel, Faraday, Maxwell, Davy, Cuvier, Herschel, Dalton, Morse, Henry, Maury, Joule, Mendel, Pasteur and Kelvin. The corrupting influence of Darwin and Lyell has led to an unjust marginalization of those great scientists and their achievements.”
>>Joey said: “Sorry, but your list here is a jumble of names from multiple historical periods:

My point was, the revolution by scientists who were also Christians began in the Renaissance and continued until the rhetoric of Darwin and Lyell corrupted everything. In general, the change was from “let’s try to prove this theory wrong,” to “let’s try to prove Darwin and Lyell right.” That is not science.

BTW, Maxwell died in 1879, Kelvin in 1907 (b.1824.) I didn’t mention Einstein as part of the revolution, only that his heroes were three Christian giants from the revolution.

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>>Kalamata: “Who is “we”? I am here to defend Christ, the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, and Christian traditions of western civilization, which includes exposing those who are, or have been corrupting influences against any of those four great pillars of peace and prosperity.”
>>Joey said: “You are often at odds, if not at war, with traditions of the our Founders and their Enlightenment era. You have more in common with those who persecuted Galileo & Copernicus’ ideas than the scientists themselves.”

No, Joey, I am at odds with your understanding of the Founding Fathers and science, and those like you. And get your facts straight about Galileo. The scientific orthodoxy of today is no different than the scientific orthodoxy of Galileo’s day. Both have recruited the power of government to suppress opposing views. I believe science can stand on it own without suppression. You obviously do not.

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>>Kalamata: “George Washington stated the earliest U.S. citizens had roughly the same religion (Christianity), and the subversion of that religion was unpatriotic.”
>>Joey said: “Agreed, though Washington himself did not necessarily agree with everything taught in church.

You always have to get your little dig in, Joey.

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>>Kalamata: “Some; for example, those who attacked Christianity and perverted the doctrine of Christ. The “Enlightenment” was not all peace and harmony, Joey. It also gave us the French head-choppers and Napolean, not to mention Social Darwinism and its incredibly brutal and destructive doctrines. Try to keep things in perspective.”
>>Little Joey said: “Oh Danny boy, for many historians the short Enlightenment era ended with the French Revolution, when the high ideals of our Founders’ reasoning met the realities of French revolutionary passions.

It was not as if there was a light switch to turn it off, Joey. The dangers to society that come from abandoing traditional Christian faith in favor of “reason” still linger. For example, Social Darwinism was very much a product of the Enlightenment. In fact, Charlie’s grandfather, Erasmus, a major figure in the englightenment, held some of the same anti-biblical views that Charlie later adopted.

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>>Kalamata: “The most destructive invention, to date, is the “separation of church and state” usurpation. It is tragically ironic that Jefferson, the person who warned us against such an invention, had his own words taken out of context...”
>>Joey said: “Agreed, certainly in the extremes to which separation is sometimes taken.

Some of the most extreme are your buds, the evolutionists.

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>>Kalamata: “Sorry, but that is pure propaganda, Joey. The Bible is silent on the issue, mentioning only that the earth is “floating” in space: [The Lord] stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.” — Job 26:7 KJV”
>>Little Joey said: “Oh Danny boy, Galileo was convicted for heresy, a crime, in reference to: 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, Ecclesiastes 1:5. I’ll come back to your lengthy post #341 later.’

No, Joey, Galileo was fodder for the scientific establishment of his day, as are the scientists of our day who refuse to bow to the establishment and kiss the ring of Darwin.

Mr. Kalamata

[BroJoeK]

Kalamata: "Benedict Arnold was a war hero, Joey."

Sure, until he wasn't -- wanted to replace George Washington, flipped sides when disappointed.

Thomas Paine supported the American Revolution with words and money, afterwards joined the French Revolution and was jailed there by Robespierre's Jacobins.
Paine eventually became deeply unpopular in the United States for his attacks on Christianity.

Kalamata: "It was most foolish of Paine to attack the faith that had sustained the colonists since they first arrived in America."

Even though jailed by Robespierre's Jacobins, Paine was more at home in the French Revolution -- which not only overthrew the King, but also guillotined French aristocracy and Catholic Church officials.
It was not the first, or last, time the wealth of an established religion was stolen to finance a revolution intended to destroy it.

Kalamata: "My point was, the revolution by scientists who were also Christians began in the Renaissance and continued until the rhetoric of Darwin and Lyell corrupted everything.
In general, the change was from “let’s try to prove this theory wrong,” to “let’s try to prove Darwin and Lyell right.”
That is not science."

Your version here is also fantasy, not true history.
In fact, as I pointed out in post #449, over the past 150+ years huge volumes of new data and ideas were added to Darwin's basic evolution ideas.
None "falsified" basic evolution but all improved our understandings to some degree.
That's how science is supposed to work.

Kalamata: "No, Joey, I am at odds with your understanding of the Founding Fathers and science, and those like you."

My understandings are based on historical facts, yours on self-serving fantasies & distortions.
For just one example: our Founders nearly all believed in the importance of religiously based morality, believed no republic could survive long without it, however, in 1794 future president, then Ambassador James Monroe, also reached out to get anti-religious Thomas Paine released from French Revolution prison.
Monroe eventually soured on Paine and they split, but President Jefferson invited Paine back to the US in 1802
Point is, at least some of our Founders were able to tolerate Paine, despite his, ah, eccentric opinions.

Today Paine is honored for, among others: his support of the American Revolution, his early opposition to slavery, his "Rights of Man" ideas which we take more or less for granted.
Paine's "Age of Reason" presents traditional deistic ideas and opposed corrupt established religions, people we today might call the "theological swamp".

Kalamata: "And get your facts straight about Galileo.
The scientific orthodoxy of today is no different than the scientific orthodoxy of Galileo’s day.
Both have recruited the power of government to suppress opposing views.
I believe science can stand on it own without suppression.
You obviously do not."

Well... first of all, by your own admission, Intelligent Design is supernatural, not natural-science.

Second, Danny boy, I've now instructed you several times on the truth about Galileo, but you continue to lie & deny, deny & lie, without end.
So, one more time: even in Galileo's time, it was no crime to be stupid.
But it was a serious crime to commit heresy and that is what Galileo was punished for.

In my post #452 above I quoted five Biblical verses Galileo's ideas contradicted.
In posts #350 & #482 among others I quoted from the Church Inquisition which convicted Galileo while also opposing Copernicus and Kepler.

Kalamata: "You always have to get your little dig in, Joey."

Not a "dig", Danny boy, since I have huge respect for freemasons and a son-in-law is one, as were several Founding Fathers -- i.e., Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Lafayette, Marshall, Burr & Monroe along with European Enlightenment leaders like Locke, Voltaire, Hayden & Mozart.
Freemasons were not historically anti-Christian though sometimes persecuted by established government churches.

Kalamata: "It was not as if there was a light switch to turn it off, Joey.
The dangers to society that come from abandoing traditional Christian faith in favor of “reason” still linger.
For example, Social Darwinism was very much a product of the Enlightenment.
In fact, Charlie’s grandfather, Erasmus, a major held some of the same anti-biblical views that Charlie later adopted."

First, sure, I "get" that you wish to blame "Enlightenment" for every bad thing, Danny baby boy.
The very word "enlightenment" sends you into paroxysms of incoherence -- smoke from your ears, froth from your mouth, "enlightenment" be d*mned to, ah, heck, right?

But as Americans, as political "children" of our Founding Fathers, we are committed to their Enlightenment ideas and history.
We are not necessarily committed to what came after in other historical ages -- Age of Revolution, Romantic Age, Victorian Age, etc., certainly not to atheistic Marxist totalitarianism.
But our Founders represent pinnacles of Enlightenment Era political & philosophical achievement and as such deserve our respect and honor.

Our Founders held a "decent respect" for the opinions of mankind and for what they called "natural philosophy", our term "natural science" = natural explanations for natural processes, only.

Kalamata on "separation of church & state": "Some of the most extreme are your buds, the evolutionists."

Maybe, but natural science assumptions are intended to be a methodology only, not philosophical or ontological commitments.
Religious opinions of individual scientists vary as much as those of any other citizens.
Regardless, I have no problem with, ahem, methodologically separating science from theology in mandatory public school science classes.
I also have no problem with teaching & practicing traditional religion in voluntary classes.

Kalamata: "No, Joey, Galileo was fodder for the scientific establishment of his day, as are the scientists of our day who refuse to bow to the establishment and kiss the ring of Darwin."

Oh, Danny baby boy, you just got to stop lying about this.
Stupidity was never a crime, but heresy was in Galileo's time as in many other times.
And heresy against the Bible is what you, Danny boy, are here fighting against, under the banner of "Intelligent Design".