Replies

>>Denier Kalamata: "On the other hand, there is little doubt that Hitler and his education chief were heavily influenced by Darwinism, as were the other 20th century butchers. "
>>History Denier Joey said: "Nonsense, the fact is that Hitler never mentioned Darwin, natural selection or evolution as natural selection in Mein Kampf.

This is Hitler's Mein Kampf on natural selection:

"Under certain circumstances, in periods of distress or under bad climatic condition, or if the soil yields too poor a return, Nature herself tends to check the increase of population in some countries and among some races, but by a method which is quite as ruthless as it is wise. It does not impede the procreative faculty as such; but it does impede the further existence of the offspring by submitting it to such tests and privations that everything which is less strong or less healthy is forced to retreat into the bosom of tile unknown. Whatever survives these hardships of existence has been tested and tried a thousandfold, hardened and renders fit to continue the process of procreation; so that the same thorough selection will begin all over again. By thus dealing brutally with the individual and recalling him the very moment he shows that he is not fitted for the trials of life, Nature preserves the strength of the race and the species and raises it to the highest degree of efficiency." [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf." Hurst and Blackett Ltd., 1939, pp.112-113]

This is Hitler' Mein Kampf on the evolution of man:

"Only after subjugated races were employed as slaves was a similar fate allotted to animals, and not vice versa, as some people would have us believe. At first it was the conquered enemy who had to draw the plough and only afterwards did the ox and horse take his place. Nobody else but puling pacifists can consider this fact as a sign of human degradation. Such people fail to recognize that this evolution had to take place in order that man might reach that degree of civilization which these apostles now exploit in an attempt to make the world pay attention to their rigmarole." [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf." Hurst and Blackett Ltd., 1939, pp.222-223]

"The favourable preliminary to this improvement is not to mate individuals of higher and lower orders of being but rather to allow the complete triumph of the higher order. The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrifice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel, and if he does so it is merely because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind; for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all." [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf." Hurst and Blackett Ltd., 1939, p.222.223]

Hitler didn't simply name-drop natural selection and evolution, Joey; he lived it!

***********************

>>History Denier Joey said: "He did claim to have first learned anti-Semitism in the anti-Semetic Christian Workers Party.

I have never heard of the Christian Workers Party, Joey. I have heard of the Christian Social Workers Party which was a left-wing Socialist organization that supposedly disbanded in the early 1900's. You cannot be a Christian and be a socialist, Joey; so don't be fooled by a label.

***********************

>>History Denier Joey said: "By his own telling of it, Hitler came to anti-Semitism through politics not science."

That may be true, Joey, but where are your references?

***********************

>>History Denier Joey said: "In reality, there were other strong influences as well, but none had anything to do with Darwin. So blaming Darwin for the Holocaust is like blaming 9/11 on the breakfast those terrorists ate.

Dr. Jerry Bergman, a Jew, disagrees with you, Joey:

"Although it is no easy task to assess the conflicting motives of Hitler and his supporters, Darwinism-inspired eugenics clearly played a critical role. Darwinism justified and encouraged the Nazi views on both race and war. If the Nazi party had fully embraced and consistently acted on the belief that all humans were descendants of Adam and Eve and equal before the creator God, as taught in both the Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures, the holocaust would never have occurred. Expunging of the Judeo-Christian doctrine of the divine origin of humans from mainline German (liberal) theology and its schools, and replacing it with Darwinism, openly contributed to the acceptance of Social Darwinism that culminated in the tragedy of the holocaust. Darwin's theory, as modified by Haeckel, Chamberlain and others, clearly contributed to the death of over nine million people in concentration camps, and about 40 million other humans in a war that cost about six trillion dollars. Furthermore, the primary reason that Nazism reached to the extent of the holocaust was the widespread acceptance of Social Darwinism by the scientific and academic community." [Jerry Bergman, "Darwinism And The Nazi Race Holocaust." Talk Origins, Aug 13, 1999]

"Terms such as 'superior race', 'lower human types', 'pollution of the race', and the word evolution itself (Entwicklung) were often used by Hitler and other Nazi leaders. His race views were not from fringe science as often claimed but rather Hitler's views were [quoting George Stein]: " … straightforward German social Darwinism of a type widely known and accepted throughout Germany and which, more importantly, was considered by most Germans, scientists included, to be scientifically true. More recent scholarship on national socialism and Hitler has begun to realize that … [their application of Darwin's theory] was the specific characteristic of Nazism. National socialist 'biopolicy,' … [was] a policy based on a mystical-biological belief in radical inequality, a monistic, anti-transcendent moral nihilism based on the eternal struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest as the law of nature, and the consequent use of state power for a public policy of natural selection…'" [Ibid.]

This is Stein's quote in full so you can examine the context:

"There is no originality here, crazy or otherwise. Hitler's views are rather straightforward German social Darwinism of a type widely known and accepted throughout Germany and which, more importantly, was considered by most Germans, scientists included, to be scientifically true. More recent scholarship on national socialism and Hitler has begun to realize that this"crazy originality" was the specific characteristic of Nazism. National socialist "biopolicy," a policy based on a mystical-biological belief in racial inequality, a monistic, anti-transcendent moral nihilism based on the eternal struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest as the law of nature, and the consequent use of state power for a public policy of natural selection, is what national socialism is all about (Jackel 1972). Once it becomes clear that a particular biopolicy was the basis of the regime, various historical problems such as the seeming inconsistency or opportunism of tactics, the strategic blunders such as the invasion of Russia, or the totally irrational efforts expended on the extermination of undesirables become clear." [George J. Stein, "Biological Science and the Roots of Nazism." American Scientist, Vol.76, Iss.1; January, 1988, p.51]

Mr. Kalamata

Referring to post #403:

In other posts mdmathis6 has expressed perplexment that somehow evolution and Holocaust keep getting entangled with each other, what do Holocaust deniers have to do with anti-evolutionists, he asks?

The answer, as Kalamata is so eager to point out, is that he thinks Darwin was integral to Hitler's beliefs and the Holocaust.
So here we go again:

Danny Denier: "This is Hitler's Mein Kampf on natural selection:"

"...Nature herself tends to check the increase of population in some countries and among some races, but by a method which is quite as ruthless as it is wise.
It does not impede the procreative faculty as such; but it does impede the further existence of the offspring by submitting it to such tests and privations that everything which is less strong or less healthy is forced to retreat into the bosom of tile unknown.
Whatever survives these hardships of existence has been tested and tried a thousandfold..."

Danny Denier: "This is Hitler' Mein Kampf on the evolution of man:"

"Only after subjugated races were employed as slaves was a similar fate allotted to animals, and not vice versa...
Such people fail to recognize that this evolution had to take place in order that man might reach that degree of civilization"

So let's start here: Darwin himself didn't use the word "evolution" even though it was a valid word in his day, it simply meant "change".
Hitler's use here of "evolution" doesn't mean he'd magically become a Darwinist, since evolution was not Darwin's word.
And the context, context, context here is clear that Hitler meant simply "change" in social conditions, not biological descent with modifications.

Also in Hitler's version of "natural selection", it has nothing to do with biological evolution, from one species to another, but rather with the practice of any ancient agriculture in weeding out the weak so the strong can grow stronger.
That's not evolution, it's just nature's way of farming.

Point is: none of Hitler's words here originated with Darwin, none are credited by Hitler to Darwin, and none represent Darwin's ideas on origins of new species through descent with modifications and natural selection.
Indeed as pointed out by Robert Richards (post #465):

"...Careful examination shows that Hitler’s racial views had no connection with Darwinian ideas; indeed, he held to the fixity of species and thought descent of human beings from animal forbearers absurd.
Hitler’s anti-Semitism comes mostly from Houston Stewart Chamberlain and political sources..."

Danny Denier: "I have never heard of the Christian Workers Party, Joey.
I have heard of the Christian Social Workers Party which was a left-wing Socialist organization that supposedly disbanded in the early 1900's.
You cannot be a Christian and be a socialist, Joey; so don't be fooled by a label."

Please reread my post #465 for a detailed discussion of political party influences on young Adolf Hitler.
Bottom line: Hitler's anti-Semitism did not begin with Darwin but with political parties who called themselves Christian.
As to whether Christians can be socialists, you might want to discuss that with the Catholics' current pope.
If I understand correctly, he sees things differently.

Danny Denier: "That may be true, Joey, but where are your references?"

I've now posted many, especially #465 above.

Danny Denier: "Dr. Jerry Bergman, a Jew, disagrees with you, Joey:"

"...Darwin's theory, as modified by Haeckel, Chamberlain and others, clearly contributed to the death of over nine million people in concentration camps, and about 40 million other humans in a war that cost about six trillion dollars."

Well... your Dr. Bergman makes a somewhat valid point here, however, notice his weasel-words and logic: "Darwin's theory, as modified by Haeckel, Chamberlain & others...".
"As modified by"??!
If we tolerate such sloppy logic, we could also say, with straight faces: "Christ's teachings, as modified by Marx, Hitler & Stalin killed hundreds of millions of people in the 20th century alone!"

"As modified by" is a total complete absolute nothing.
You can't sanely blame Christ for His teachings as modified by devils and you can't blame Darwin for his modest & reasonable scientific theory as modified by lunatics!

Danny Denier quoting Bergman, 1999:

"..."Terms such as 'superior race', 'lower human types', 'pollution of the race', and the word evolution itself (Entwicklung) were often used by Hitler and other Nazi leaders....
...Hitler's views were [quoting George Stein]: " … straightforward German social Darwinism of a type widely known and accepted throughout Germany and which, more importantly, was considered by most Germans, scientists included, to be scientifically true...."

Once again: Darwin himself never used the word "evolution" and Darwin was no "social Darwinist".
All that cr*p came later and should not be blamed on Darwin's modest scientific theory.

Danny Denier quoting Stein, 1988:

"National socialist "biopolicy," a policy based on a mystical-biological belief in racial inequality, a monistic, anti-transcendent moral nihilism based on the eternal struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest as the law of nature, and the consequent use of state power for a public policy of natural selection, is what national socialism is all about (Jackel 1972). "

The fact is that insane people can take any perfectly reasonable idea and twist it to their own nefarious purposes.