Posted on 02/25/2018 6:40:59 PM PST by Elderberry
I wonder what the authorities would have done, if all the people in the complex were Muzzies?
What are you referring to? You mean you are saying Koresh was not a child molester, and had children by teens, and that he did not claim be a (sinful) messiah, with an apocalyptic doctrine that meant he would wage war after the flesh, and was thus heavily armed, and that all the testimony to all this is fake?
What do you have to the contrary of whatever you are denying? What other conspiracies theories do you subscribe to? Do you also believe 911 was done by the government, but that the moon landings are fake, and the Protocols of Zion are true?
Certainly nothing justifying intentionally burning 27 children alive. EDo you think?
No, I never inferred that would be right, nor the apocalyptic fantasy of Koresh which resulted in an array of firearms to wage war after the flesh. Do you think Koresh was a valid manifestation of the NT church?
I have no experience with CS whatsoever...I do however remember the Waco disaster...It was claimed at the time that the tank that breached the building in many places was pumping CS gas into the structure and it was said (by some) that there were over 400 canisters of CS gas that landed inside the compound...The FLIR videos showed cannisters being fired into the buildings and fires starting...
They appear to have different types of CS gas...One is the normal stuff and another is pyrotechnic or incendiary gas which is used to start fires...
Incendiary CS was used a number of years ago to burn out a killer named Dorner from a cabin he was holed up in...
If one digs deep enough he can find where both kinds of CS gas were used at Waco...
Neither Koresh nor any of the 87 burned alive did anything to justify execution. The “fully auto” illegal guns were never found. They traded and sold guns for MONEY AT GUN SHOWS!!!That is no crime. What the hell is a “NT Church”. So if you are not an “NT CHURCH” , it is ok to murder those inside? Are you kidding me? You must be with the FBI or the ATF. God what a travesty and human disaster for those innocent people.
Can you imagine if they were Black Muslims? My GOD!!!!
If it burned, it wasn’t CS. LE has all sorts of pyrotechnic devices. So does the US military. But again if it was flammable it wasn’t CS. Obviously it can be used in conjunction with other pyros but it isn’t ‘incendiary CS’.
I have. It’s some REALLY bad stuff. You will run through walls to get away from it.
My experience is in corrections in 15 states. Both on the line and as a consultant. We never had a fire and it was announced as non-inflammatory. I will admit, I am not familiar with what the FBI used and I believe they had military with them.
If the Branch Davidians were a bunch black Muslims, the ATF, FBI, and whoever else was there, would still be camped out outside the complex.
They would never have gone there. Look at the attention on Coward County while THOUSANDS of blacks are murdered in Chicago every year. Why do they avert their gaze on those innocent people? Is it who pulled the trigger? Rifles kill 500 here per year —knives kill 1500— cars kill 30,000!! blame the NRA for that?? What a joke.
The deep state doesn't work like that. The government fed the media propaganda in preparation for the attack. Do you really think Honda Accord driving reporters have more investigative resources than Fedzilla? The government fed the reporters everything they wanted them to know, then invited them along to the big event to record their awesomeness.
I wonder what would have happened, if Wilson Goode had been a white guy?
In contrast to your focus on the inexcusable and tragic and preventable loss of lives (by both the government and Koresh), which i nowhere justified despite your unhinged fallacious inference, my focus was on the doctrine and practices of Koresh and the Branch Davidians, documentation for which is easily found , and by extension on your doctrine, but you have not to answered any questions regarding this, while you only sound like a conspiratorial cultist, as Koresh was. No, I do not work for the FBI or the ATF.
The “fully auto” illegal guns were never found. They traded and sold guns for MONEY AT GUN SHOWS!!!That is no crime. What the hell is a “NT Church”. So if you are not an “NT CHURCH” , it is ok to murder those inside? Are you kidding me? You must be with the FBI or the ATF. God what a travesty and human disaster for those innocent people.
Gun trading? Including grenades? You can only for so far with your recourse to "all made up." Meanwhile, "What the hell is a NT Church?” It not surprising you do not know, as it is not one with a "sinful messiah" with child brides who relies on the arm of the flesh in doing apocalyptic battles.
Well ,you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. The Seventh day adventists did not have live hand grenades. None. Zero. Live hand grenades are illegal. They had no illegal weapons. They had grenade CASINGs. You can buy them at any gun show. They are surplus empty casings. They legally sold them .
I am not calling you a biggot but i see such biggotry in the institutional “ Christian” church. The most vile hatred i have ever witnessed have been against Mormons. I see that here . These people had legalistic Christian doctrines that i do not accept but i would not ever condone their execution.
Lots of babies.
It did take a Black mayor to do that.
It could be that the city elected Wilson Goode just because he was the mayor who could get rid of MOVE.
Nothing would surprise me. I am pretty sure if a white mayor did exactly the same thing, the black mayor did, we would be in our 33rd straight year of rioting in Philadelphia. I think it’s a shame what happened, but I don’t know what the alternative was.
Facts? Where my argument ever that of condoning the killing at least 75 Branch Davidians, including 25 children? It never needed to happen and should not have, with the inclusion of a few pyrotechnic tear gas rounds (and denying thy used them), but neither should Vernon Howell/David Koresh been preaching his delusional doctrine and arming his religious cult like an army and acting like one when he (as well as the gov.) could have prevented the escalation.
In the first few days, the FBI believed they had made a breakthrough when they negotiated with Koresh an agreement that the Branch Davidians would peacefully leave the compound in return for a message, recorded by Koresh, being broadcast on national radio.[22] The broadcast was made, but Koresh then told negotiators that God had told him to remain in the building and "wait".[22] Despite this, soon afterwards negotiators managed to facilitate the release of 19 children, ranging in age from five months to 12 years old, without their parents.[11] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
The government tried to deal with what was essentially a theological problem by insufficient appreciation of that, and by recourse to physical force, while the preoccupation of Koresh with his esoteric eisegesis and its apocalyptic physical warfare meant he choose to physically take on a force he could not win against, at the cost of a deceived multitude who chose martyrdom for a lie.
Meanwhile, fact? You uncritically and thus misleadingly refer to the Branch Davidians Seventh day Adventists when in fact they were at least 3 steps removed from being in fellowship with the (itself aberrant) SDA sect, which reproves them, and whom the even more aberrant Branch Davidians tended to target for conversion. And demonic Mormons - whose likewise elitist deluded founder also died in a gun fight - warrant sound rebuke.
Welcome to ADVENTIST TODAY
History and Fatal Theology of the BRANCH DAVIDIANS ON FEBRUARY 28 AND APRIL 19, 1993, the BranchDavidians of Waco,Texas proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that twisted theology can be fatal-both to those who advocate it and to theologically innocent bystanders-long before the great, final judgment day....
The story began March 2, 1885,with the birth of Victor Tasho Houteff in Raikovo, Bulgaria. Persona non grata to both church and state, he was expelled from his native land in 1907and migrated to the United States. On May 10,1919, he was baptized a Seventh-day . Adventist in Rockford, Illinois, and in 1923 moved to Los Angeles where he became a member of the Exposition Park Church and served as a Sabbath School teacher. In 1928 Houteff began to advocate views about last day events incompatible with Adventist understanding of Bible prophecy. ..
Relentless advocacy of his views led, in 1934,to a major hearing that involved representatives from the General Conference as well as the Pacific Union and Southern California conferences. The result was a pamphlet with the title A Warning Against Error, endorsed by the Autumn (now Annual) Council later that year as an official General Conference publication and issued by the Pacific Press as A Reply to the Shepherd's Rod.
In February, 1935,Houteff moved to Waco, Texas, and in May settled ten miles east of town on a farm he named Mount Carmel Center. At various times as many as 90 to 125 people, including children, took up residence there...
He urged his followers to remain members of the church wherever possible and encouraged them to take advantage of every opportunity to advocate his views, even to the point of disrupting church services...
According to Houteff, the investigative judgment and sealing of the living began in 1929 when he received the gift of prophecy and began his ministry. The sealed saints, 144,000 in number (including himself), would eventually be translated without seeing death.
n order to effect this literal fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, Houteff claimed it would be necessary for him and his followers to migrate to Palestine in the near future. Unrepentant Jews, Arabs, and others would perish in the great battle foretold in Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38 and 39. The Davidians would then lead out in establish- ing the eternal reign of Christ as Lord over all the earth...
In 1981 Vernon Howell joined the Mount Carmel Center community near Waco, then led by George Roden. In 1983 he began claiming the gift of prophecy. On November~, 1987, animosity b~tween Howell and Roden erupted into a gun battle. Howell was charged with attempted murder but set free by a hung jury, and became leader of the Branch Davidians. In 1990 he legally changed his name to David Koresh, David being the name of the ideal king of Israel, and Koresh the Hebrew name of Cyrus, who released the Jews from Babylonian exile, both presumably types of Christ...
Koresh considered himself a new incarnation of Jesus Christ, th~ Lamb of Revelation 5. He claimed ownership of everything and everyone, especially all women, and exemption from paying taxes. His male followers had to remain celibate, and he alone was permitted to inseminate. He is said to have had 19 wives, some of whom were 12 or 13 years old...
During the early decades of Shepherd's Rod history, its advocates made a practice of demonstrating publicly in the vicinity of church gatherings and often disrupted church services, at times resorting to somewhat bizarre tactics. Together with the Davidian interpretation of the slaughter foretold in Ezekiel 9:1-11, these milder forms of force may in some way have predisposed Koresh to more drastic actions/ - https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/Adventist_Today_Online/1993/1993_03.pdf
Interview with Pastor Charlie Liu
Pastor Liu: I was the pastor at the Diamond Head Seventh-day Adventist church in Honolulu for four years
It was there that you had some connection with David Koresh?
Yes, back in 1986 David Koresh visited at the request of a member and began holding home Bible studies and eventually took 14 of our members back to Southern California and then to Texas.
You tried to keep your church members from defecting. What was their response to your Christian and Adventist lines of reasoning?
A typical response was, "We have the new messenger, the new light. What you are reasoning from is the old light. Ou~ leader is the only one who can open the seven seals and lay before us the truth of the very last days." I reasoned from Christian principles, pointing out the fallacy of playing to people's ~ears and using threats and manipulation. They would say, "Christ's methods were the old way: we have the new...
It's clear to me that he offered a very black and white view of life. Koresh offered something that said: "Are you tired of thinking, of making decisions in your life? Come to me, I will do the thinking for you. Don't worry any more." That is appealing to a lot of people.
How can a group that takes the Bible so seriously end up in that Waco shootout? Do you think there may be a link between a literalistic interpreta- tion of the Branch's key chapters, Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 14, which do contain some violent language, and the recent violence at Mr. Carmel?
I believe there is a definite connec- tion. They believe they have a God- given call to bear arms, not only to defend themselves, but to bring about the end-time scenario. They see Ezekiel 9 as a call to cleanse the church-first Adventism, then Christianity and the world. In Revelation 14 they see seven angels, not Adventism's traditional three angels. The additional four angels are the prominent leaders of the Shepherd's Rod-Branch Davidian SDAs, beginning with Victor Houteff and culminating in David Koresh
Koresh on Ellen White By Dennis Hokama Is IT JUST COINCIDENCE that many conservative Adventists were uniquely vulnerable to the teachings of David Koresh? A videotape of a Bible study Koresh conducted for a group of Los Angeles Seventh-day Adventists in 1987 gives some insights into this question. On February 28, 1987, exactly six years prior to the fatal shootout in Waco, Texas, I attended this Bible study organized by my father, a veteran Adventist minister and missionary. He had insisted that I come because I would get to meet someone who, he said, might be the next prophet of the church. The speaker was David Koresh, then going by his birth name Vernon Howell.
In the question and answer session, I expressed. skepticism regarding his interpretation of scripture, and then I asked the burning question on everybody's mind: Was Howell actually claiming to be the successor t~ Ellen White?
Well,it's like this. She [EllenWhite] tells us, if [sic]someone is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah,and when he comes, men will say, 'You are too eamest. You do not interpret scriptures properly. Let me show you how to teach your message.' Well now, the commentatorssay point blank, that this was herself. They say to go to Selected Messages. Well, she makes it even plainer in Selected Messages.
Much later, I discovered that Koresh was virtually quoting Selected Messages, Book I, page 412. By using this quote he effectively sought Ellen White's permission to engage in novel interpretations of scripture and implied that he was the one she had said would come with the Elijah message - https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/Adventist_Today_Online/1993/1993_03.pdf
The way David Koresh’s cult came into existence is a long and sometimes complicated story. It began with a man named Victor Houteff, who in 1929/30 was disfellowshipped from a Los Angeles Seventh-day Adventist church for sharing “divergent views” with other church members.1 Houteff, a self-proclaimed messenger of God,2 responded to the expulsion by crystallizing his “divergent views” and presenting them to the public in The Shepherd’s Rod Vol. 1 (published in 1930) and The Shepherd’s Rod Vol. 2 (published in 1932).3..
Houteff in 1942 decided to make a clean break from the mainline denomination by officially forming the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists Association “complete with membership certificates and ministerial credits.”7 The name “Davidian” came from Houteff’s belief that he was the antitypical “David...”8
In 1955 Houteff died and the mantle of prophetic leadership fell to his wife Florence.
The beginning of the end for Houteff’s group occurred when Florence made an official call for the faithful to gather at Mt. Carmel during the week of April 16 to April 22, 1959. According to Florence, April 22 would mark the end of the 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation chapter 1111 as well as the beginning of the judgments listed in Ezekiel chapter 9.12 The day was also suppose to witness God’s clearing out of all the Jews and Arabs from Palestine,13 the ushering in of the Davidic kingdom,14 and possibly the second coming of Christ.15
In response to Florence’s announcement more than 1,000 “true believers” sold all their possessions, gave their money to the church, and gathered at Mt. Carmel. Their only reward was to see April 22 come and go.l6 The result of Florence Houteff’s failed prophecy was the disillusionment of many believers who either left the Davidian movement altogether, or joined one of the several factions that broke off from the main sect. By the late 1960’s Houteffs original group had, in effect, ceased to exist.
The “Branch” Davidians The largest faction resulting from the disintegration of Houteff’s sect remained near Mt. Carmel and was led by a man named Benjamin Roden, who claimed that his arrival at Mt. Carmel on April 22 was the “sign” Houteff’s followers had been waiting for.17 Roden named his faction the Branch Davidians and declared himself to be the one sent by God to deliver the message of the fifth angel spoken of in the Book of Revelation.18
When Ben Roden died in 1978, Branch Davidian leadership was assumed by Ben’s wife Lois (the one who would deliver the message of the sixth angel of Revelation).19 When Lois passed away in 1986, George Roden (son of Lois and Ben) took over.
George Roden, like his parents, believed himself to be a divinely appointed messenger of God, the one, in fact, who would deliver the message of the apocalyptic seventh angel.20 According to George, he had inherited what he called “the divine seal and crown” and his message would be a last warning in the final days — one directed to a world on the brink of seeing the fulfillment of God’s judgments as proclaimed in Ezekiel chapter 9.21 George eventually claimed he was the messiah22 and the son of Christ.23
The Rise of Vernon Howell (a.k.a. David Koresh) Vernon Howell (hereafter referred to as David Koresh) arrived at the Branch Davidian compound in 1981 after being disfellowshipped from a Tyler, Texas Seventh-day Adventist church. Although well received by nearly everyone at the Davidian commune, Koresh did not get along with George Roden, some saying that conflict between the two started as early as 198324 (the year Koresh first claimed to be inspired of God).25
The Davidian commune soon began to experience internal strife due to the rivalry between Koresh and Roden. Then Koresh suddenly left the commune and settled in Palestine, Texas, where he was joined in 1985 by Branch Davidians who had been run off of the Branch Davidian compound at gunpoint by Roden. Koresh and his followers remained in Palestine for nearly 2 years, living in scarcely more than cardboard and plywood shacks until late 1987 when the conflict between Koresh and Roden culminated in a gunfight...
The bizarre trial that resulted from this incident ended with Koresh and his cohorts walking from the courtroom as free men. Roden, on the other hand, was given a six-month jail term27 for filing a legal brief in which he threatened to call AIDS upon the justices of the Texas State Supreme Court.28 When Roden began serving his sentence in January of 1988, Koresh and his disciples were handed a long-awaited opportunity to take over the Branch Davidian compound, the site of their bloody 1993 clash with the law. - - http://www.equip.org/article/the-branch-davidians/
The Seventh day adventists did not have live hand grenades. None. Zero. Live hand grenades are illegal. They had no illegal weapons. They had grenade CASINGs. You can buy them at any gun show. They are surplus empty casings. They legally sold them .
Must have been quite a business:
The Branch Davidians were well armed with small arms,[104][105] possessing 305 total firearms, including numerous rifles (semi-automatic AK-47s and AR-15s), shotguns, revolvers and pistols;[61][66][106] 46 semi-automatic firearms modified to fire in full automatic mode (included on above list): 22 AR-15 (erroneously referred to as M16), 20 AK-47, 2 HK SP-89, 2 M-11/Nine[66][106] Texas Rangers reported "at least 16 AR-15 rifles,";[61] 2 AR-15 lower receivers modified to fire in full automatic mode;[106] 39 "full auto sears" devices used to convert semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapons; parts for fully automatic AK-47 and M16 rifles; 30-round magazines and 100-round magazines for M16 and AK-47 rifles; pouches to carry large ammunition magazines; substantial quantities of ammunition of various sizes.
Other items found at the compound included about 1.9 million rounds of "cooked off" ammunition;[61] grenade launcher parts; flare launchers; gas masks and chemical warfare suits; night vision equipment; hundreds of practice hand grenade hulls and components (including more than 200 inert M31 practice rifle grenades, more than 100 modified M-21 practice hand grenade bodies, 219 grenade safety pins and 243 grenade safety levers found after the fire);[106] Kevlar helmets and bulletproof vests; 88 lower receivers for the AR-15 rifle; and approximately 15 sound suppressors or silencers (the Treasury reports lists 21 silencers,[106] Texas Rangers report that at least six items had been mislabeled and were actually 40 mm grenades or flash bang grenades from manufacturers who sold those models to the ATF or FBI exclusively;[107][108] former Branch Davidian Donald Bunds testified he had manufactured silencers under direct orders of Koresh).[37]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siegehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
The conspiracy theories came thick and fast. The most prominent were popularized by a pair of independent filmmakers, Linda Thompson (who was a full-throttle conspiracy theorist best known for her film Waco: The Big Lie) and Mike McNulty (who was more measured, and received an Academy Award nomination for Waco: The Rules of Engagement). We'll take a look at the two most commonly repeated claims: - https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4511
A retired UPS driver reveals new details about cult leader David Koresh and what led up to the deadly 1993 standoff with law enforcement in Waco, Texas -Larry Gilbreath: I delivered ammunition for 223s, AK-47s.... And AR-15's and big magazines to go on 'em. …Even a grenade launcher....https://www.cbsnews.com/news/waco-texas-siege-i-have-been-blamed-for-what-happened-out-there-says-retired-ups-deliveryman /
The link above provides interviews with many people, but i expect you to dismiss it since it comes from a mainstream source, yet paradoxically from no less than the Washington Post comes this on the child abuse issue.
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