5 posted on Sun May 06 2012 10:40:00 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Seizethecarp: “Persons who believe that their religious beliefs are superior and who denounce others for their ABO view appear to be a tiny minority.”
38 posted on Sun May 06 2012 11:30:27 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by eastforker: My suggestion would be a policy of no bashing of any religion or lack there of. Attacking some ones faith is the same as a personal attack IMHO.”
I didn't notice this thread until late Monday night. I've waited overnight before responding, but I believe something simply **MUST** be said.
How did we go from
1) debating whether to tolerate those who want to vote for Mitt Romney as the lesser of two evils to
2) debating getting rid of alleged religious bigots?
All I see in Jim Robinson's truce is that he's decided to allow people to publicly say that “Anybody but Obama” is okay and that voting for Mitt Romney is the lesser of two evils.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Jim Robinson still thinks Romney is evil — just a lesser evil. Fair enough.
However, what some people are saying here is that we should stop criticizing Romney or even discussing religious issues. That goes **WAY** beyond anything Jim Robinson has said.
I believe the underlying issue for many of us is, as Graewoulf has said, that there's more than one type of “conservative.” Social issues conservatives are not always trying to “conserve” the same things as economic conservatives. Also, with regard to this specific thread, Eastforker admits in post 719 that he is an atheist, just not a “radical” one.
Here's what Jim Robinson has said: “As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and-pro America.”
Being “pro-God” isn't the only thing on that list defining conservative, but it **IS** the first thing on the list.
Maybe that should tell us something?
More recently, post 1108, Jim Robinson wrote this: “When I first started FR, we immediately came under attack by atheists, trolls and malcontents, who in many cases attacked us on our religious beliefs, so when I established the first set of rules for forum conduct, I included ‘No religious bigotry.’ Didn’t realize at the time that I would’ve had to qualify that as ‘no anti-Christian bigotry’ but that’s the way it is. I am definitely biased toward God and Christianity. Obviously, I also support Israel, the Jewish people and the Jewish Nation.”
Free Republic is not an atheist site. Sounds to me like Christians and Jews are not the ones who need to be careful what they say around here.
I firmly believe that Mitt Romney belongs to a cult. Both traditional Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants have to be committed to that same conclusion if they're faithful to their doctrinal statements. In other words, please don't ask me to compromise my beliefs about Romney's religion — Romney won't compromise his beliefs about mine, though he seems willing to compromise lots of other things to get elected.
Does that make me an anti-Mormon bigot? Not by any reasonable definition. I'm willing to vote for a conservative pro-life, pro-family, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual-marriage Mormon under certain circumstances, but there's no way I'm going to act as if Mormons are part of traditional Christianity. They aren't, and the Mormons themselves believe that the “sects” that constitute the rest of the professing Christian world are corrupt and that Mormonism alone has “restored” the truth of Christianity.
In dealing with Orthodox Judaism, I have the highest possible level of respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters and for the nation of Israel, but it would be simple blindness to deny fundamental differences. Israel is our ally and Jewish people deserve the apologies of the Christian world for our horrible and unbiblical history of persecuting Jews, but we cannot minimize the question of whether Jesus is the Messiah. That is the heart of the difference between Christianity and Judaism.
That difference is a thousand times more crucial for wicked religions such as Islam which actively seek to kill and destroy faithful Christians and Jews. I can work with Mormons who, when all is said and done, belong to a religion whose founders had good things to say about the United States Constitution, or with Jewish people whose ancestors valued the United States as a bastion of religious freedom far greater than what they found in Britain or almost all nations of Europe. Islam, by contrast, is inimical to the most basic principles of Western values, in both Judeo-Christian and secular liberal forms.
I'm perfectly willing to cooperate in the political realm with conservatives of any faith or no faith, but the fact remains that all religions are not equal. To admit that is not bigotry, but to deny that is blindness.
Being allied is not the same as being in agreement.
1) debating whether to tolerate those who want to vote for Mitt Romney as the lesser of two evils to
2) debating getting rid of alleged religious bigots?
It's called thread Hijacking.
I would also vote for a Mormon under these circumstances, although it would be with a great deal of hesitation. Nevertheless, this is a moot point as Romney IS NOT a conservative pro-life, pro-family, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual-marriage Mormon and to pretend otherwise would be an insult to the Mormons who actually are.
You have to use the tools at your disposal to advance politically.
The only tool we have to possibly advance a conservative agenda is Romney.
That we are left with Romney is a whole discussion in and of itself, but are we going to use the tool or not?
Many at FR are stating they will not vote for Romney - that is fine, but it misses the fundamental issue at hand - the time to go full bore against the GOP establishment was in 2008. Conservatives didn’t do it effectively for 3-1/2 solid years.
To claim a principled political stand when there is no viable candidate to articulate those principles is simply self-aggrandizement and self-back-patting - in abundant supply here by folks here. “Look at me, I’ve got pure principles” - No, the time for 2012 was 3 years ago. The time for 2016 is now.
If FR is influential as it once was, why are we in this predicament? Will FR be influential for the 2016 race - or the 2014 midterms? Not if FR takes itself out of the presidential race debate in 2012.
Use the leaky bucket to bail out the boat when you don’t have any other bucket. To claim purity of principle by refusing to bail out the boat at all, even with a leaky bucket, is fine, but the boat will certainly sink.
Politics is not a place for purity of principle in the best of times. It would be nice if it was, but it never has been. Right now conservatives aren’t getting much of anything. Unseat Obama with the tool we have, and maybe we’ll get something. Don’t unseat Obama and we get nothing.
Whatever. FR will continue to be a source of news for me... as for the rest, I plan to detoxify. Vaya con Dios.
Hey! What are you doing on this thread making sense?
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And thanks for the coherent, well thought out and expressed evaluation of the situation.
Thanks.
(Agree with the poster after yours who answered your question with, "the thread was hijacked." I apologize to all for feeding in to the hijacking, and will only respond to posts relevant to the topic of the thread.........like yours. :)
” - - - I believe the underlying issue for many of us is, as Graewoulf has said, that there’s more than one type of “conservative.” Social issues conservatives are not always trying to “conserve” the same things as economic conservatives.”
Thanks for clearly summarizing that point in my post.
Think about it: which would the Body Politic, (i.e., the interlocked Liberal Agenda Media, Democrats and RINOs), find easier to attack, marginalize and ignore?
1.) A single topic attack on them?
OR
2.) A multi-topic attack on them?
Now that their 80 + year Keynesian Rule of us has finally run out of money, we Financial Conservatives know that we have circled the prey and stand ready to attack.
AAHHHHRRWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Necessary to our attack is the attack from as many other types of Conservatives as possible. The more “hot-button” attacks, the better. Multi-pronged beats single-pronged attacks every time!
Presently the arrogant Democrats either ignore all Conservatives, try to marginalize us as “A vast, Right-Wing Conspiracy,” or accuse us of being villains, mainly through the Court of Public Opinion which is owned by the Liberal Agenda Media, (LAM).
My overarching point is that politicians come and go, political parties come and go, but the thinking that supports the idea that it is SANE to spend more money this year than was taken in as income last year remains entrenched in the policies of the Body Politic, which is the inter-dependant linkage of the LAM, Dems, RINOs, and most importantly you and I as voters.
Support and vote for who you want to, but before you do look into the eyes of your children and grandchildren and tell them that because of you voting or not voting, THEY will have to work a large part of each of their work days for the rest of their lives to pay back principle AND interest to the owners of US Federal Government Bonds that WE sold to give us OUR “Entitlements” of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obama”care,” Unemployment payments to workers out of work, Food Stamps, Housing assistance to Illegal Aliens, Free Hospital “Emergency” Medical and Dental care to Illegal Aliens AND their extended families who continue to live permanently in Mexico, Aid to Dependent Children, No child Left Behind, Federal Aid to Education of Young Socialists, “Free” Student loans to future Federal politicians and bureaucrats, etc., etc., etc.
BTW, to put all of this into perspective, if you are now paying the very low rate of only 10 % Personal Federal Income Tax, then you are currently working every one of your workdays at 10 % X 8 hours = 0.8 hours X 60 minutes = 48 minutes of EVERY work day for The Federal Plantation located at 1600 Plantation Avenue, in the District of Corruption, USSA.
Those 48 minutes per work day feed the Federal Beast for only 60 % of each year, forcing the current Sheriff of Nottingham Timmy Gee to sell more Federal Bonds that HE says that YOUR grandchildren’s descendants will be more than happy to pay off.
Did I just describe a “Bond Bubble?” Obviously not as I am just a marginalized, and ignored member of “The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.”
Yep, Hilly said it before she became Obama’s Secretary of Statements. She knew that eventually we would conspire to replace The Body Politic with a system that works.
You know, the one our Founding Fathers came up with,
and clearly specified in THE US CONSTITUTION.
May God Bless America, again. (This time let us not be allowed to take His blessings for granted).
This post was a thread hijack. This person wouldn't let his atheistic stance allow him to denounce the religious side of FR. To him any religious discussion is "hate" and "bigotry".
You are wrong in both of your characterizations as both of the above digressions on my thread are hijackings!
Due to my personal medical issues for most of Sunday I was not able to refocus the thread back onto the topic of helping JR raise money until after it ballooned over 1000 posts.
If you re-read my opening post, this thread was started as an invitation to ABO FReepers, in view of JR’s announced TRUCE, to return to FR, for ABO FReepers to feel “safe” (at least from being invited to leave or denounced as RINO’s) in expressing ABO views, and for them to consider resuming donations to the current flagging FReepathon and the need to keep FR up and solid in 2012.
One of the big reasons that ABO FReepers have shut their wallets is attacks on their character, religion and patriotism simply for holding a belief that the ineligible Marxist Manchurian is a far greater danger to our Republic and religions than Romney could ever be despite his Mormonism.
JimRob’s TRUCE would seem to call for a halt to these personal attacks on ABO FReepers. Attack away on the substantive reasons why you are FUMR or ABO, but refrain from personal attacks under FR posting rules, and refrain from abuse and attempted shunning of FReepers holding these opposing views.
I can work with Mormons who, when all is said and done, belong to a religion whose founders had good things to say about the United States Constitution,
- - - - - -
The only real issue I have with your post is this...rather the LDS founders and early leaders had BAD things to say about the US and Constitution and attempted to set up a LDS theocracy, which many LDS still believe and hope for. That is the exact reason that Joseph Smith, Jr. (founder of the LDS church) ran for POTUS in 1844.
“... you do solemnly swear in the presence of Almighty God... that you will avenge the blood of Joseph Smith upon this nation, and so teach your children; that you will, from this day henceforth and forever, begin and carry out hostilities against this nation, and keep the same a profound secret now and forever. So help you God.”
- Apostle William Smith, Arguments Before the Committee On Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate In the Matter of the Protests Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, A Senator from the State of Utah, to Hold His Seat, 1905, p. 231
“We will go to a land where there are at last no old settlers to quarrel with us…. We will leave this wicked nation, to themselves, for they have rejected the gospel, and I hope and pray that the wicked will kill one another & save us the trouble of doing it.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, quoted in “Journal of Heber C. Kimball,” under January 2, 1846; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 216
“Who goes to the White House these days?... A gambler and a drunkard. And the Vice-President is the same. And no man can get either office unless he is a gambler and a drunkard, or a thief. And who goes to Congress? You may hunt clear through the Senate and House, and if you can find any men that are not liars, thieves, whoremongers, gamblers, and drunkards, I tell you they are mighty few, for no other kind of men can get in there.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, quoted in Hirshon, The Lion of the Lord: A Biography of the Mormon Leader, Brigham Young, 1969, pp. 278-279
“[U.S. President] Zachary Taylor is dead, and in hell. And I am glad of it.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, quoted in Perry Brocchus, “Utah Officials’ Report to President Fillmore,” Congressional Globe, new series, v. 25, p. 87; cited in B.H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 1930, v. 3, p. 520, footnote #3
“Joseph Smith escaped many conspiracies against his life…. But the Lord said – ‘Now let my servant seal up his testimony with his blood;’ and that sealed up the damnation of the United States, not of individuals, but of the nation…. I am prophet enough to prophesy the downfall of the government that has driven us out…. Wo to the United States! I see them going to death and destruction.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, in William S. Harwell, ed., Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 1847-1850, 1997, pp. 221, 238
“The people of the rest of the country are our enemies…. When the government conflicts with heaven, we will be ranged under the banner of heaven and against the Government…. I defy the United States. I will obey God.”
- Prophet John Taylor, Salt Lake Tribune, January 6, 1880, quoted in Samuel W. Taylor, Rocky Mountain Empire, 1978, p. 29
“The American Nation will be broken in pieces.... you live in the day and hour of the judgments of God Almighty.... the hour of God’s judgment is at the door.... I wish to warn all nations.... Thrones will be cast down, nations will be overturned, anarchy will reign, all legal barriers will be broken down, and the laws will be trampled in the dust. You are about to be visited with war, sword, famine, pestilence, plague, earthquakes, whirlwinds, tempests, and with the flame of devouring fire.... the slain of the Lord will be many.”
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, April 21, 1879, in Millennial Star, v. 41, p. 241
“Brigham raised his hand and said, ‘I swear by the eternal Heavens that I have unsheathed my sword, and I will never return it until the blood of the Prophet Joseph and Hyrum, and those who were slain in Missouri, is avenged. This whole nation is guilty of shedding their blood, by assenting to the deed, and holding its peace.’ ... Furthermore, every one who had passed through their endowments, in the Temple, were placed under the most sacred obligations to avenge the blood of the Prophet, whenever an opportunity offered, and to teach their children to do the same, thus making the entire Mormon people sworn and avowed enemies of the American nation.”
- Elder John D. Lee, Mormonism Unveiled, 1877, p. 160, online at http://www.helpingmormons.org/Rare_Books.htm
“These people [the Mormons] repudiate the authority of the United States in this country, and are in open rebellion against the general government…. So strong have been my apprehensions of danger to the surveyors that I scarcely deemed it prudent to send any out…. We are by no means sure that we will be permitted to leave, for it is boldly asserted we would not get away alive.”
- David H. Burr, Surveyor-General for Utah, August 30, 1856, letter to Thomas A. Hendricks, General Land Office, March 28, 1857; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 229
“Mormon leaders consistently expressed their feelings that the war had been brought on by the wickedness of the United States, which had rejected Mormonism and permitted the death of the prophet of God and his servants…. Although the waste of lives was lamentable, a war between states would avenge the death of Joseph Smith. The Saints seemed especially gratified that Jackson County was a war zone and that Missouri would suffer the penalty of its cruelties to the Mormons. Besides avenging the blood of the innocent, the Lord would also prepare the way before his coming, which Mormons believed would occur in Jackson County, Missouri…. William Clayton wrote that such a spirit seemed to operate on Brigham Young’s mind: ‘All Latter-day Saints will not stay here [in Utah] forever. He [Young] talks much and frequently about Jackson County, Missouri.”
- Eugene E. Campbell, Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church in the American West, 1847-1869, 1988, p. 235
“So as to make you realize the enormity of Mormonism suffice it that I found them a community of traitors, murderers, fanatics, and whores. The people publicly rejoice at the reverse to our arms and thank God that the American government is gone as they term it, while their prophet and bishops preach treason from the pulpit. Federal officers are entirely powerless and talk in whispers for fear of being overheard by Brigham’s spies. Brigham Young rules with despotic sway and death by assassination is the penalty of disobedience to his command.”
- Colonel Patrick E. Conner, Union Army officer, letter dated September 14, 1862; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 274
That post says it all folks! Fabulous post!
Takes the edges off the question of what “truce” is... and it does not null and void the owners PRO-Stance on the issues of what this site is about.
Thank you for stating this so well....I agree!
Some?
Main group would be, naturally, MORMONs.
Second, would be Oprahized 'Christians'.
Third; probably atheist/agnostics who don't like to heaar about ANY religion ANYwhere.
Thanks.
I have often thought of compiling a list of those I though would be eligible to inherit Eternal Life, it would be a daunting task to include all those that have indeed laid out the rules to attain that goal.
I have been doing works, but who knows how many works to do.
I thought about memorizing the Bible, nah Computers make that unnecessary.
I thought about praying five times a day, nah, someone already uses that one.
Then I thought of some of the simpler things, like; Whosoever believeth on Me shall have everlasting life.
Even to those that Believe on My name.
Grace is a free gift of God, the price has been paid.
I have made the way so simple a fool could find it........
Hope that is seen, is not hope
for what a man doth see,
why does he yet hope.
Jesus is exactly who He said He was. Made Simple easy to understand statements about what was telling us. He left a simple plan, preachers and teachers made it complicated, not unlike how lawyers make the Constitution complicated today.
God intended for us to rule our selves, but like the days of old, we shout for a king to rule over us, then we shall obey all His rules.........
Well put!
+1 !!