Aircraft carrier plan shows China naval ambitions

Agence France Presse (AFP) ^ | 11/18/2010 | Sebastien Blanc

[sukhoi-30mki]

Aircraft carrier plan shows China naval ambitions

By Sebastien Blanc (AFP)

BEIJING — The new generation of combat aircraft China proudly showed off at the Zhuhai Air Show in the country's south this week could soon be taking off from a prestigious runway: an aircraft carrier.

Beijing has become increasingly assertive in its ambitions on the high seas -- as demonstrated by recent tensions with old rival Japan -- but still lacks this naval centrepiece.

This looks set to change.

Although it has not officially announced as much, China is working on a carrier and Western experts believe it could be launched as early as next year, though not in a fully operational state.

It is a former Soviet aircraft carrier called the Varyag, currently being refurbished in the port city of Dalian in northeast China.

Rick Fisher, a Chinese military expert at the International Assessment and Strategy Centre in the United States, told AFP the Pentagon estimates China's carrier will start operations by 2015.

"This is a reasonable projection. China could have enough of the carrier air wing flying by that time to start developing carrier operating procedures and fighting tactics," he said.

Fisher said that Chinese leaks to media in Hong Kong and Japan last year indicated that Beijing plans a five-strong carrier fleet, including two nuclear-powered vessels.

Arthur Ding, an expert on the People's Liberation Army, which operates the country's navy, said owning an aircraft carrier is a prestige issue for China, whose 2.3-million-strong military is already the world's largest.

This is particularly so when neighbours -- and rivals -- including Japan and India are already equipped with them, said Ding, of National Chengchi University in Taiwan.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Obama and the socialists have done so much damage that the US can't afford to fight China."

Right now, we don't have to worry. China may have a large military but have no ability to project her force beyond her own borders. That's why this is troubling. Perhaps in 20 years she may gain that capability. But for now, it's not a problem.

[NCC-1701]

“...where it is being refurbished...”

Doesn’t it have to be furbished first? Doesn’t look furbished to me. It’s an empty hull.

[TalonDJ]

Looks like they moved him to a dry dock.

The Varyag.

[Mariner]

"And the English, and the French and the Italians and the Russians. And a lot of other countries have a lot of experience with deploying used carriers they got from other countries. Just because you don't consider something 'legitimate' or 'useful' does not mean it does not have strategic significance and tactical utility. "

The Japanese have only small helicopter carriers...and that's NOT an Aircraft Carrier.

Additionally, the purpose of an aircraft carrier is power projection against hostile opposition.

I contend the English, French, Italians, Russians...or any country other than the US and Japan have ever achieved that standard.

Under your standard, our LHA and WASP class ships are "legitimate" aircraft carriers...completely unable to defend themselves in a power projection role and completely without "strike" capability beyond 200miles inland...and CERTAINLY not against a hostile air force.

[GonzoGOP]

That's why this is troubling. Perhaps in 20 years she may gain that capability. But for now, it's not a problem.

Exactly, but Navies take a long time to build. Japan has great quality and a nucleus of highly trained crews. Their diesel boats are absolutely top notch. Their Atago class DDGs are nominally better than our Burke class. But it takes five to seven years to build a flattop, and another couple of years to train up a crew. Of course they can do a lot of the latter with the Hyuga. They know that if they are going to take on China in 2020, they need to start building their fleet now.

Of course the Japanese are good at playing fast and loose with definitions like "Self Defense". After all they call the Hyuga a destroyer. An 18,000 ton "destroyer" that can operate half a dozen F-35s, strictly for self defense of course.

[GonzoGOP]

Additionally, the purpose of an aircraft carrier is power projection against hostile opposition.

I contend the English, French, Italians, Russians...or any country other than the US and Japan have ever achieved that standard.

There are some Argentine pilots that might dispute the fact that the Royal Navy was unable to do power projection with Harrier carriers. The RN has done power projection with ships who's capabilities are fare less than what the new Japanese flattops will be capable of.

[Mariner]

"And the English, and the French and the Italians and the Russians. And a lot of other countries have a lot of experience with deploying used carriers they got from other countries. Just because you don't consider something 'legitimate' or 'useful' does not mean it does not have strategic significance and tactical utility. "

Yes, against the Argentine Air Force of the 1980s...the Harrier was a match.

[Tallguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hy%C5%ABga_class_helicopter_destroyer

A helicopter carrier in all but name...

[jboot]

The Hyuga class DDH is a unique vessel type. See here. If you are familiar with WWII naval history, you will catch the deliberate irony of naming these ships Ise and Hyuga. The two ships in the follow-on class may have amphibious capability and if so would be a closer match with the Wasp.

I have nothing but respect for the men of the JSDF. Thanks to Japan's institutional pacifism, military service in Japan is neither prestigious nor a gateway to more gainful employment in later life. It is strictly a blue-collar job that carries a social stigma, yet the requiremnts for service are challenging and only the best applicants are chosen. Only the most dedicated and selfless men would seek out such employment.

[Oztrich Boy]

The Hyuga class DDH is a unique vessel type.

Not entirely unique. Hyuga (except for it's not going to carry aircraft - heh) is a functional duplicate of the Italian Giuseppe Garibaldi

[jboot]

As I understand it, there is a plan to upgrade several Wasps to operate the F-35B STOVL. That would make the Wasp capable of the power projection role, albeit on a smaller scale than the CVNs.

Assuming it doesn't get cancelled, the F-35B will be MUCH more capable than the Harrier. It will be a real game-changer.

[Tallguy]

The new LHA’s have eliminated the well-deck in favor of expanded aviation stores and hangar space. They will be much more capable vessels to support the F35B/Harrier.

[flowerplough]

Not explicitly for the sake of access to women, but for grandiose, breathtaking, adventure that takes some of the “extra” young men’s attention away from their own lack of access to women, I’d guess. They won’t be out raiding for female slaves to drag back home, but their government will likely try to distract them with heroic, masculine enterprise that’s almost as satisfying as doing the sex to a woman body.

[GonzoGOP]

Similar layout, but some differences. The Hyuga and Ise are quite a bit larger (18,000 tons vs 13,800 tons) than the Giuseppe Garibaldi. They are also have a heavier missile armaments with 16 VLS tubes. Interestingly the Giuseppe Garabaldi carries 16 AV-8s or 18 helicopters. Ise and Hyuga only have a compliment of 14 helicopters. Italy like Japan was forbidden from operating aircraft carriers after WWII. And build the Giuseppe Garibaldi in 1981 to get around the same restrictions. The Italians changed their constitution (I think in the late 80s or early 90s) and built a larger 30,000 ton ship. However it is still a mixed use vessel rather than a single use aircraft carrier.

[Oztrich Boy]

Similar layout, but some differences.

Functionally, not than many Similar size, machinery, hanger size and layout. 2 or 3 CIWS mounts. 2x3Torplaumchers

Missiles:
Garibaldi SAM 16 Aspide(+32 reloads)+ Otomat SSM
Hyuga SAM 16 ESSM(+? reloads)+ ASROC SUW

[Vroomfondel]

ping

[sukhoi-30mki]

Japan’s military is technologically advanced and you said, it’s probably the second best. Problem is that it’s seriously lagging in offensive capabilities.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The Japanese have indicated no solid plans to outfit F-35s to the Hyuga or other baby flattops. Other than the political dimension, the fact is that these ships remain very small to support anything more than a handful of F-35Bs. Besides I think they would need to modify the ships with a ski-jump for optimal performance.

[sukhoi-30mki]

There’s no point talking about Japan’s achievements in WW2. In the present day, only US and French (one ship) carriers have the capability to launch high performance aircraft into combat. Russia’s sole carrier has the specifications but little or no meaningful deployment record. The Harrier carries used by some countries (Italy/India/Spain/Thailand) would be limited to air defense/support of US operations).

[magslinger]

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