Posted on 10/12/2009 7:09:21 AM PDT by re_tail20
In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.
Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?
Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonexaminer.com ...
Look I carried and fired the M16 in the army. It is a great garage queen... Keep it clean and unfired it was fine. But it gets really really hot after a 3-4 mags of high rate firing. The bolt gets carboned up as it is blowing powder hot powder residue onto the bolt. Really hot, and really dirty and the lube is burned up. It jams. The new Ruger piston driven SR 556 has four potions on the gas impingement system that lets you select how much gas is used to move the piston. So you can adjust for bad ammo or a dirty weapon and keep firing. Seems like a great idea but needs to be tested. So I was never a big fan, and lots of controversy on the gun forums surrounding the issue of gas impingement vs piston.
Well, it is from the AP and written by a guy who says guns and bullets rather than weapons and rounds. That is enough for me to discount it until a more reliable source reports the same thing.
Buy a german rifle.
I’m no gun nut but I have fired enough home weapons at the firing range and without question automatics have a very nasty habit of jamming. In a combat situation it is deadly. We ought to reverse engineer the AK47 and just admit we have been providing junk to the combat soldiers and it is costing lives. The best weapon in the world under ideal conditions is fine and dandy but if it fails when it is needed most it isn’t worth a damn.
The problem isn't the military trying to "save a buck" it is politicians and lobbyists making sure they pump money to the right contractors.
You can purchase 4 or 5 AK-47's for the price of a new M-4.
Read some early reports from the 2003 attack on Iraq. Our troops were throwing down their jammed M-16's and M-4's and picking up abandoned AK-47's. There are many, many reports of enemies taking multiple hits with the 5.56 ammo of the M-16 and still not being disabled.
Knowledgeable people can argue the pros and cons of overall design concept, piston operation, cyclic rates, cartridge weight, supply considerations and other factors.
But 40 years of experience has shown the AK-47's larger bullet size and its reliability under combat conditions make it a superior weapon in the killing fields.
here is a video of rapid fire at bottom of this web page. Worth watching the M-4 in action. http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/index.html
One of my employees, testing optics in all weahter conditions, -30 to +100, in the snow, rain and mud, shooting 15K a day, three days a week on the M4 systems usually 4-5 recievers and 4 barrels per revciever for over 10 years, the weapon has its issues and weak points,they all do, clp will burn off, and the M4 will lock up with min lube. However, slather on the tw-25b and keep trucking.
Enjoyt the Rugar, you couldn’t give me one. THE rod is pinned inthe system, it cannot be removed for cleaning.
I have an AK in 223 - after a couple of mage it is too hot to hold - the power burns so hot. My SKS (762x39) can be fied all day and is not all that hot.
Problem? Not an engineer, but the ammo and auto fire had to be part of it.
The M4 is also much more accurate - a lot of the troops are now using scoped weapons these days.
So, no problem. So long as none of the 1200 rounds that DID have an issue, didn't happen during a firefight.
I'm no expert, but this seems like an awfully high failure rate to me.
Well, it is from the AP and written by a guy who says guns and bullets rather than weapons and rounds. That is enough for me to discount it until a more reliable source reports the same thing.
Me too! It wouldn't be the first time that morale sapping rumors were planted in the American press by willing agents of our enemies.
Bingo- like our special ops guys, keep the AKs as backup carry weapons. Good ones come with stainless steel barrels. Rate of fire is slower, mechanism simpler. One thing, this is the observation of a “historian” NOT an after action combat report that has validity. It’s the dust in Afghan that’s the problem. But it ain’t like we didn’t teach the Afghani’s how to kick out the russians— we know their tactics so why set up a base in the middle of nowhere without immediate devastating tactical support and comm? Hmm?
Key is someone is scrimping on the operational support and some “bunker” style planning from central command. Hose em’ from the air when the perimeter sensors pick em up.
For that matter Ma Duce and .30 caliber brownings very seldom had problems. M1 was unstoppable and the M14 was terrific.
We have had nothing but problems with the M16 and its varients since it was forced onto the military.
I understand and basically agree with what you are saying. Our troops deserve the best no matter where they come from.
My point is that once the defense contracts go out, it is the responsibility of the quality assurance inspectors from the Department of Defense to make sure that the items purchased by the U.S. Government are being manufatured according to the standards specified in the government contract......whether that contract went to the Russian manufacturer of AK-47’s or the U.S. manufacturer of a new M-4.
Case in point:
DEFENSE LOGISTICS: THE ARMY NEEDS TO IMPLEMENT AN EFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT AND OVERSIGHT PLAN DOE THE EQUIPMENT MAINTENANCE CONTRACT IN KUWAIT
GAO-08-316R January 22, 2008
SUMMARY
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-08-316Rhtml
And more to the point...
http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf
Other than bypassing the politicians and the political bureaucracies that control the purchasing of weapons for our troops, I don’t know how else this problem might be effectively addressed any time soon.
I welcome any other thoughts you might have on this issue.
If you read the article, the M4 and the machine gun jammed after hours of continuous firing, after the barrels got white hot. No make of automatic carbine or machine gun will work when it gets to that point. The outpost was in deep trouble and the weapons didn’t fail due to poor reliability, but due to use beyond designed norms. The units put in remote outposts need to be supplied with extra arms for use when the primary arm fails. Also, why are we locating outposts where air relief and rescue takes a long time? Have a plan for fast relief.
More to the point, we don’t hear about them having grenade launchers and mortars to hit back at mass attacks.
Someone asked in the various threads on this topic where the claymores and perimeter protection devices were. At least one response said they were no longer used. That is a big issue IMHO. These dudes are our enemy no matter if one is in the White House or not.
“Why aren’t they picking up the fallen AK’s and ammo?”
Because it is often booby trapped. Militaries around the world learned this the hard way.
“In Malaya there is evidence that this practice was actively pursued. In Operation Purvey, some 10,000 rounds of .303 were doctored with high explosive. On firing, either from a rifle or a Bren light machine-gun, such a cartridge would detonate, burst the barrel, and kill or severely injure the firer. There was some concern about the legality of such actions, but General Templer, the GOC, dismissed these.
A further 50,000 rounds were ordered which were filled with a thermite incendiary composition. These when fired would simply melt and seal the breaches of the enemy weapons. The advantage of these was that if the enemy discovered the doctored rounds and managed to get them back into the British supply system they would not kill the British troops. The SAS also doctored weapons such as the Lee Enfield rifles, which were left for the communist terrorists (CT) to find.
It wasn’t only the SAS that were involved in such activities. Roy Follows joined the Malaya Police and spent much time fighting the CT. In one incident he recorded that he was summoned to the Officer Commanding Special Branch and given a bandolier of .303 ammunition. He looked at it and on being asked what it was stated that it was the normal ball ammunition. He was then told that in fact the rounds had been doctored and the propellant, a low explosive, had been replaced with high explosive. Follows was then told to leave this ammunition where it was probable that the CT were likely to find it. He recorded that, several weeks after he had left the ammunition, there was an ambush by the terrorists in which it was reported that, as they opened fire, there were a number of breach explosions, which resulted in the ambush being abandoned…”
(Source: “Malice Aforethought – A History of Bobby Traps from World War One to Vietnam”, Ian Jones, p 225, 226)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.