Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

Deseret Morning News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | Jennifer Dobner

[MHGinTN]

I wonder, if Bible scholars took scissors to the book of mormon novel and removed ALL the passages lifted from the King James Bible (both Old and New Testament) what would be left?... By including so much from the Old and New Testament the author of the B of M fabricated a document that proselytizers for the religion of Mormonism can plead a seeker pray to God to ask if the book is not true and be assured that God will not respond with a signal that 'it' is true only in part because that is not biblically the way God has communicated with humankind. Satan tried to tempt Jesus into a long and detailed harangue over what God has communicated, just as Satan swept Eve's mind away into doubting by questioning God's communication. Jesus responded with 'rhema', not entering into long debate and harangues but quoting a passage of Truth and letting that be all He had for response, without haranguing over the particulars. However, if the scissored version of the BM were prayed over, I wonder what/if God's response would be? I think He has given that answer to those dedicated to the Truth in the Bible ... don't argue with God and don't try to manipulate God into never-ending Q&A, seek God's Truth in His communication worthy for 3000 plus years of His dealings with humankind.

[MHGinTN]

The Bereans search the Septuagint to assure themselves of the truth Paul brought to them, and they are commended even to today for this work in His communications rather than searching for some ‘feeling’. In these last days God has chosen to communicate with us through His Son, written about in the New Testament of epistles from eyewitnesses or their immediate disciples.

[Old Mountain man]

You do that, but please be sure to read the WHOLE THING, and not just the verses that tend to back up your own position.

[Osage Orange]

Then many of those posting untruths about others on FR, it appears, think they are saved, but clearly ARE NOT saved and don’t know it. Interesting.

Boy...you could say that again.....

[rightazrain]

I’ve read the Old Testament and the New Testament entirely. That’s all I need to read, in addition to prayer and worship, for Divine guidance as a Christian.

I don’t need the Book of Mormon.
I don’t need the Doctrine & Covenants.
I don’t need the Pearl of Great Price.
I don’t need the Temple Recommend, nor required acknowledgment that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of the god that lives on the planet Kolob.
I don’t need secret oaths.
I don’t need to perform baptisms for the dead.
I don’t need special “holy” underwear 24/7.
I don’t need Joseph’s Smith’s personal approval to go to Heaven (which in your religion makes him another messiah).

None of these things do I need. Since you feel you do need them, you have been sadly deceived, and I pray you will be delivered into the saving grace of Jesus Christ, Who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[rightazrain]

Sorry, Osage Orange. I meant to direct my comments to Old Mountain Man.

[DelphiUser]

I wonder, if Bible scholars took scissors to the book of mormon novel and removed ALL the passages lifted from the King James Bible (both Old and New Testament) what would be left?...

We's lose maybe five chapters, or are you saying anything that you could construe to be an interpretation of the Bible (lie ever time the Work Jesus or Savior is mentioned) then there would not be much left, for the Book of Mormon is all about Jesus.

By including so much from the Old and New Testament the author of the B of M

You mean God?

fabricated a document that proselytizers for the religion of Mormonism can plead a seeker pray to God to ask if the book is not true and be assured that God will not respond with a signal that 'it' is true only in part because that is not biblically the way God has communicated with humankind.

Can you use more double negative please, I can still decipher this.

You might have heard this one "With God, all things are possible" God can testify of whatever, whenever to whomever he wants no matter what your or my understanding is for he is ALL POWERFUL.

As to God's testimony, he has always answered prayer, the scriptures are replete with People praying and God answering. Why is is suddenly bad when Mormons do it?

Lastly, We ask people to pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. None of this double and tripple negative stuff clarity in your questions is often reflected in a clarity of answer from God. Satan tried to tempt Jesus into a long and detailed harangue over what God has communicated, just as Satan swept Eve's mind away into doubting by questioning God's communication.

Did you read the Same Bible i did? Satan took Jesus all over, Stones to bread, top of the Temple pinnacle, showed him all the Kingdoms, etc before Jesus told him to get lost. As for Eve, Satan told her a truth to get her to believe a lie. And, get this, she did not pray about it.

Jesus responded with 'rhema', not entering into long debate and harangues but quoting a passage of Truth and letting that be all He had for response, without haranguing over the particulars. However,

Is hat like Anti's who harangue over particulars here?

if the scissored version of the BM were prayed over, I wonder what/if God's response would be? I think He has given that answer to those dedicated to the Truth in the Bible

Probably about the same as the Chopped up remains of the Scriptures we have as the bible.

You do know that Jesus, and all the gospels quote from the Book of Enoch right?

You do know that Book of Enoch is not in the Bible, right?

You do know that the Book of Enoch makes if clear that The trinity is a false Doctrine, Right?

IMHO you can make anything by saying anything, by cutting enough of it out.

Just for the record, I am interested in all truth, not just Biblical truth.

don't argue with God and don't try to manipulate God into never-ending Q&A, seek God's Truth in His communication worthy for 3000 plus years of His dealings with humankind.

As the Mormon church teaches, Study it out in your mind, then once you think you know, go to the author of all truth and ask for confirmation, he will either confirm, or cause a stupor of thought, then you know you are wrong and will go and study some more.

MHG, Let me ask you a question, please.

Do you really believe that a God who sent his only begotten son down here to Die for you, who built the world for you, who loves you will be angered by an honest heart felt question? Can you picture being angry at your son for asking an honest question?

My personal feeling is that God would love for us to pray more. I know when my kids go somewhere I will be waiting for them to write, phone, or text, and hanging on their every word. I also believe families were designed to teach us about God, I mean he set up the "First" family with Adam and Eve, right?

Thanks for pinging me, and I hope my perspective will be helpful to your understanding of us.

[Old Mountain man]

I would suggest that you read the New Testament in its entirety, like Corinthians before you make too broad a sweeping statement. Then you might read the Book of James to get some insight on what people on the road to salvation actually do.

[greyfoxx39]

I don’t understand why the Mormon had to treat you that way. Why didn’t he simply correct you like I did.

Didn't he say that at one time he was in charge of training the missionaries? ;)

[rightazrain]

I’ve already told you I’ve read the whole Bible.

Yes, the Book of James. “Faith without works is dead.”

You seem to think none but Mormons read the Bible or do good works. We do. Christians believe works FOLLOW salvation because we have been saved and love our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Quit insinuating that I haven’t read the Bible. Besides, I don’t believe the LDS teaching that the Bible is correct, INSOFAR AS IT IS CORRECTLY TRANSLATED. That little caveat allows mere men to pick and choose what they will believe, like the Mormons do. New revelations from so-called prophets can boot any Christian tenet they want to. (Which they have done in abundance.)

Not a very firm foundation, my friend. You are building your house on shifting sand, as Jesus warned.

[tracer]

"I would be interested to see if you have the brass to actually post it."

Not to mention the ability to do so...

[Old Mountain man]

No more comments about baptism for the dead? That was Paul’s idea.

[MHGinTN]

"Thanks for pinging me, and I hope my perspective will be helpful to your understanding of us." Delphi User

Your perspective has been very helpful in understanding Mormonism and Mormonism Apologetics, from the start several months ago. It saddens me that you don't appear to comprehend the posts many of us make to you folks when seeking to awaken you from the Smithian darkness.

Many of us have become accustomed to being called bigots, haters, and such, yet we do not hate Mormons (the individuals). On the contrary, we love you or we wouldn't persist in striving with you. Mitt's candidacy has brought to the surface most of the strange beliefs in Mormonism ... even today I found a great deal of material showing your founders' heavy involvement with the occult, peepstone gazing, numerology, and treasure divining by consulting with 'spirits of the air'.

After months of harangue at FR and seeing the Romney public campaign I'm convinced a more pervasive campaign to try and move evangelicals and Mormonism closer to comity has at its heart the run for highest office in America ... what a way to grow 'the Mormon church' by lending credibility to the heresies with a leader in highest office to bring power and prestige and tax monies for programs to church friendly venues! Is it conspiratorial? I'm a writer, but not a writer of conspiracy tales. My being convinced of it doesn't make it so, but the more I dig into Mormonism, the recent campaign in the past three or four years from Utah, and the army of Mitt sycophants working so hard to obfuscate the truth and deceive regarding LDS past and current anti-christian doctrines and beliefs and rituals, the more convinced I am becoming that the Mormon religious leaders have an agenda with regard to Romney and gaining power in America beyond Utah and Nevada.

Evangelicals have to be manipulated into remaining quiet toward the heresies (Romney's sycophancy asserts you're a bigot if you consider his religion when deciding for whom to vote), or they have to be manipulated into going along in the spirit of comity and 'tolerance' to achieve the goals of your church and its leadership, to include Mitt Romney's campaign. Romney's recent speech fooled a lot of conservatives, but one phrase stood out as a clue to the manipulative goal: he asserted something to the effect of 'one should not be elected or rejected because of their religious beliefs/faith'. Frankly, that's a liberal tactic to squelch individual right to discern the nature of the candidate ... we must not consider the heresies the candidate adheres to when deciding whether we want that person as our supreme political/governmental leader? Bull excrement, in plain language.

And before you plead and whine that you're a Thompson supporter, you are a Mormon apologist heavily enlisted to spin and twist where the heresies of Mormonism are presented, as evidenced over the past several months!

[Old Mountain man]

So far, silence.

[tracer]

"....I am becoming that the Mormon religious leaders have an agenda with regard to Romney and gaining power in America beyond Utah and Nevada."

Don't look now, but the Church's power and influence are worldwide. Utah and Nevada are small potatoes, and, with respect to America, you've missed the train on that one, too........

[colorcountry]

Yes, 1 Corinthians:

1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

and

22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

[tracer]

"Smart-ass" is spelled with a hyphen.

Now, would Jesus (yours or mine, it matters not) enjoy shoving heresy right back down someone's throat?

An who is the father of contention? No, not you, so don't flatter yourself or cry "abuse!!" to Jim Robinson, either......

[colorcountry]

1 Corinthians 2
1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

[tracer]

ColoNcountry has spoken. Hear and obey....