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The carbon cost of building and operating light rail
Crosscut Seattle ^ | 7/25/2007 | Emory Bundy

Posted on 07/25/2007 1:16:59 PM PDT by sionnsar

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To: sionnsar
Sound Transit pegs the cost to tunnel north from downtown Seattle at $500 million per mile.

You should be celebrating....LA's subway cost $600 million per mile...12 years ago!

Very Progressive!
21 posted on 07/25/2007 6:12:26 PM PDT by rottndog (Government is a necessary evil, but as with all evils, the less of it the better.)
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To: Andrew Byler
And there is no record yet of a rail (or highway) tunnel needing to be rebuilt once constructed.

The Big Dig?
22 posted on 07/25/2007 6:13:35 PM PDT by rottndog (Government is a necessary evil, but as with all evils, the less of it the better.)
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To: rottndog

LOL! And they want to do the same here in Seattle, along the ignored & decayed waterfront. (To be restored with federal monies — money the rest of you non-Seattle saps will pay.)


23 posted on 07/25/2007 6:16:55 PM PDT by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: Celerity
Vehicle weight is meaningless in terms of fuel economy unless you are stopping and starting alot. Aerodynamics are meaningless unless you are traveling at a high rate of speed (over 40MPH). Rail is very efficient due to the low rolling resistance of iron wheels on steel rails and excellent aerodynamics. A very long train is unaffected by hills because it is long enough that part of it is going downhill while part of it is going up hill...the two cancel eachother out. The only thing that effects fuel economy is relative elevation above sea level of destination compared to departure points.

Busses are diesel. Diesels produces visible particulates but little else. Gasoline produces little visible particulates but lots of other bad stuff that’s invisible. In otherwords, buses are not as dirty polluters as your eyes are telling you and gasoline engines are not as clean as your eyes are telling you.

24 posted on 07/25/2007 6:23:45 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: Andrew Byler
And there is no record yet of a rail (or highway) tunnel needing to be rebuilt once constructed.

I guess replacing useless concrete ceiling panels couldn't be considered "rebuilt" either.

25 posted on 07/25/2007 6:35:01 PM PDT by Brakeman (America can do nothing for the Muslim world)
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To: Libertina
I know Emory Bundy from the attempt in 2000 to kill Link Light Rail. Among other luminaries, both Maggie Fimia and Rob McKenna were part of that effort. They created an entity called "Sane Transit" which is anti-rail and favors BRT -- bus rapid transit. Before the price of fuel skyrocketed, their position made some sense. However, electric rail now appears to be a better solution.

I pointed out in their inaugural meeting that Link was a real estate development project, not a transportation project. And I introduced them to the Law of (Robert) Moses, which says, "Once you put in the first stakes, they'll never make you pull them up."

I won't be able to speak for Link's ability to function as a successful transportation project until it opens for business in July 2009. But I can testify to its efficacy as a real estate development project.

I took a tour of the right of way where it runs down the middle of MLK Way in South Seattle. MLK Way was a 4 and 5 lane highway. It is now about the width of a 10 lane highway. Outside the rail right of way, there are two lanes on each side. The large median, with the light rail tracks, takes up about the same width as a 6 lane highway in itself.

All the rundown businesses and apartments on MLK have been torn down. On intersecting streets, a lot of homes in poor condition have been torn down some distance from MLK. The new single family homes and apartments are subsidized housing aimed at a multiracial neighborhood. In other words, whites have been invited to return to what was once an Italian neighborhood that went black. Several years before the line opens, transit-oriented development has already begun to line MLK Way -- which is exactly what former Seattle mayor Norm Rice had in mind when he pushed to run the line down MLK in the first place.

So it's fulfilling the main function set by its designers.

The problem with light rail is that its backers have turned it into a religion. There are places where light rail works well (San Diego, Denver, Salt Lake City, Portland, St. Louis, the Los Angeles Blue Line), where it works adequately (San Jose, the LA Gold Line), and where it has failed ignominiously (Buffalo, the LA Green Line, the River Line in New Jersey). Light rail is not a panacea.

But I have long since stopped listening to Emory Bundy. When I saw Maggie Fimia at a chamber music event last week, she greeted me and tried to convert me to her BRT religion, but I explained the economics of gasoline, diesel -- and electricity. For Emory, Maggie and their group, BRT has become just as much a religion as light rail. Both modes have their uses in the Seattle area. But I no longer take such a dim view of Link. It may just work after all.

26 posted on 07/25/2007 11:13:24 PM PDT by Publius (A = A)
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To: rottndog
The Big Dig?

The Big Dig is a new highway tunnel. It replaced an elevated highway approximately 50 years old.

27 posted on 07/26/2007 5:30:02 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Brakeman
I guess replacing useless concrete ceiling panels couldn't be considered "rebuilt" either.

That would be maintenance, which is necessary on all infrastructure. You know, like patching potholes or restripping a highway or replacing a guardrail damaged in a wreck.

Rebuilding is the complete replacement of the sunk investment at the end of its useful life.

28 posted on 07/26/2007 5:32:42 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Publius
But I no longer take such a dim view of Link. It may just work after all.

Seattle is a very dense and populated area. If the Link fails, it will be because it does not have the service characterisitics and speed of modern subway and elevated rapid transit like the Washington Metro, MARTA in Atlanta, or BART in San Francisco. The key of the link succeeding is speed.

29 posted on 07/26/2007 5:35:53 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: sionnsar

The economic way to implement light rail is to go find a few square miles of empty land, construct an elaborate underground rail tunnel network, then build a new city on top of it. ;)


30 posted on 07/26/2007 5:55:00 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Andrew Byler
BART works because it is a heavy (not light) electric rail system with a lot of capacity that was built in the Sixties by engineers who knew what they were doing. The Bay Area - especially the East Bay - evolved around it. Trying to build such a system into an existing urban infrastructure like Seattle would be nearly impossible. BART couldn't be replicated today for less than 200 billion dollars and twenty years of work - extension costs now are running about a billion dollars a mile.

And the trains are dirty (largely because they let bums ride for free) and the system still can't turn a profit, despite very heavy usage.

31 posted on 07/26/2007 6:01:36 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
extension costs now are running about a billion dollars a mile

The Airport extension was 7.5 miles for $1.5 billion.

32 posted on 07/26/2007 6:57:38 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Andrew Byler

Yeah, but the airport extension was completed a while back, and construction costs have skyrocketed lately. They’ve estimated four billion to extend four miles from Pittsburg/Bay Point to Antioch, for example, probably killing that idea. It’s going to cost 13 to 16 billion to extend from Fremont to San Jose, and it isn’t that many miles. Further BART expansion isn’t economically justifiable any more.


33 posted on 07/26/2007 7:03:23 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Publius
But I no longer take such a dim view of Link. It may just work after all.

If it's not too expensive, conveniently timed and connects directly to the Sea-Tac airport, I intend to use it to bypass the traffic jams there.

34 posted on 07/26/2007 7:47:52 AM PDT by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: Celerity
If I rode a bike to work, a mere 8 miles each way, then no one will argue that I am doing my part to save the planet. No one, that is, but my wife who will have to hear the alarm clock ringing at 5 am and watch me arrive at home at 8 o’clock, tired as hell. I couldn’t do anything else BUT work and go to work.

I would just feel sorry for the poor saps who have to sit next to the person who rode their bike to work.

35 posted on 07/26/2007 7:51:42 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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