Mitt Romney against 'Big Love'[troubled by Mormonism's polygamous past]

people.monstersandcritics.com ^ | 5-11-2007 | Stone Martindale May

[bedolido]

Mitt Romney is said to be troubled by Mormonism's polygamous past.

No mentions however about that whole black people being directly descended from Cain thing.

Brigham Young, the 2nd Prophet of the Mormon sect said: "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

Former Governor of Massachusetts and Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney speaks at the Republican's Abraham Lincoln Unity Dinner, 14 April, 2007, in Des Moines, Iowa. Ten republican presidential candidates spoke to more than 1,000 supporters at the dinner.

[Elsie]

What you are doing is snooping and faultfinding,

How DARE you point out all the things our beloved leaders have said over the years!!!

We don't believe ANY of their mouthings!!!

(Oh... wait...)

--MormonDude

[Elsie]

Submitting to the laws of the land is first priority in a Christian belief.

So, if the USA decides that Homosexuals have a right to be Boy Scout Leaders, and got a law passed to that effect, would you guys then submit your children to camping with them?

[Vermont Lt]

We are a tolerant group aren’t we? There are way, way, too many people on this site that are fanatical about bashing other’s core beliefs.

I will stand at the gates of heaven and chuckle as you discover that your intolerance will not let you in.

Who cares if someone else considers me an apostate. Based on what I hear from the middle east, there’s a pretty long line of folks who think I am headed for the firey trash heap. Whats a few more added to the list.

I think I am doing alright, and until God tells me different I am going to stay the course.

While I respect other’s right to the believe what they want, I do not respect others when they either try to force their views on me, or talk trash about someone else. In my mind, it somewhat misses the whole point of love they neighnbor—and your enemy.

[nowandlater]

It is interesting that you trying to educate Mormons about our beliefs. I remember reading a quote somewhere that goes like this 'God created the Mormons to help the Christians understand how the Jews feel'. LOL. Anyway, the point I see from the quote is, would you expect an observant Jew to be fair about discussing the validity of Christianity . I am guessing some would and some would not. I would guess those who believe that Christianity were heretical would eagerly like to lecture Christians about the error of their ways. And I suppose so it is with some here who would like to lecture Mormons about the error of our 'Heretical' Christian beliefs. Nonetheless, the most accurate reprensentation of our beliefs come from Mormons, not from the Orthodox believers.

Anyway, back to one of the issues you were talking about. First of all, you are confusing the 'New and Everlasting' convenant which is all the blessings which flow from Jesus Christ's sacrifice with plural marriage. Married Mormons are happily trying to live the 'New and Everlasting' convenant everyday of our lives. To us, God works with his people through convenants. To us the law of Moses was old, but with the death of Jesus Christ were are not saved by the law of Moses, but instead a New and Everlasting Covenant based more on living the spirit of the law. We have references to Baptism by Authority as the 'New and Everlasting Covenant'. To us Mormons, the 'New and Everlasting Covenant' is all the blessing which flow from the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ by living by the promises we make at Baptism and our Temple blessings.

Here are more examples:

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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 22

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Manchester, New York, April 1830. HC 1: 79–80. This revelation was given to the Church in consequence of some who had previously been baptized desiring to unite with the Church without rebaptism.

1, Baptism is a new and everlasting covenant; 2–4, Authoritative baptism is required.

  1 Behold, I say unto you that all ^aold covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an ^beverlasting ^ccovenant, even that which was from the beginning.

  2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the ^alaw of Moses, neither by your ^bdead works.

  3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

  4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the ^agate, as I have commanded, and ^bseek not to counsel your God. Amen.


THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 131

Instructions by Joseph Smith the Prophet, given at Ramus, Illinois, May 16 and 17, 1843. HC 5: 392–393.

1–4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5–6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7–8, All spirit is matter.

  1 In the ^acelestial glory there are three ^bheavens or degrees;

  2 And in order to obtain the ^ahighest, a man must enter into this ^border of the ^cpriesthood [meaning the new and ^deverlasting covenant of ^emarriage];

  3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

  4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an ^aincrease.

  5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of ^aprophecy means a man’s knowing that he is ^bsealed up unto ^ceternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

  6 It is impossible for a man to be ^asaved in ^bignorance.

  7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All ^aspirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by ^bpurer eyes;

  8 We cannot ^asee it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all ^bmatter.

[FastCoyote]

“What you are doing is snooping and faultfinding, about something you have made no covenant with, or choose to practice, and in real essence you are interfering with another’s religious freedom trying to tell the LDS how they should worship.”

And what you are trying to do is shove Mitt Romney down our throats as if all the bizarre covenants and crystal gazing mean nothing. If we weren’t discussing a presidential campaign, I could care less what you do. You could worship a Golden Ox for all I care, just don’t pretend there are no significant differences between your religion and traditional Judeo-Christian thought that have profound impact on how we are governed.

[nowandlater]

No change in our approach to others. Do no forget that God condemns even the Mormons for doing the same.

D&C 63:60 Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ.
61 Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips—
62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.
63 Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off.
64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.

---

I think this demonstrates, that is easy to miscontrue our thoughts and feelings on the matter.

[redrock]

I usually don't bother with the stupid people who bash Romney simply BECAUSE of his religion but your total ignorance is appaling.

"I have no use for any organized religion especially one founded by a charlatan."

Seems to me that at one time Jesus was portrayed in the same light....and called a charlatan by most of the religions of that time.

I have lived in Utah for almost 30 years...and am not LDS. I have found that some of the strongest supporters of the Constitution ARE members of the LDS Church (it's how they prefer to be called). I have found them to be some of the strongest supporters of the traditional family. I have found most of them to be some of the most honest people I have ever met.

If you want to drag your own little petty hates into things I guess no one can stop you...but....'Mormons' ARE Christian and they are Christians that I respect.

redrock

[redrock]

I'll take your statement's to 2 of my closet friends (both of whom are LDS) and ask them what they think.

After all...both of them are....well....black.

I doubt if they will agree with you....but then I rarely find that they agree with stupid people like you anyway.

redrock

[nowandlater]

I think this part of your statement should be the sole focus of the discussion “that have profound impact on how we are governed.” Would differences in belief impact how Romney governs from President? The bottom-line is that I think it will have no impact. However, if it can be shown that it will, then I think your argument against his candidacy will be quite powerful. Otherwise, this discussion we are having is fruitless.

[DelphiUser]

If you want to drag your own little petty hates into things I guess no one can stop you...but....'Mormons' ARE Christian and they are Christians that I respect.

Thank you redrock, I have always respected your opinion.

Weren't you at the little get-together we(FR) had at wingers a few years back?

[FastCoyote]

“Would differences in belief impact how Romney governs from President? The bottom-line is that I think it will have no impact. However, if it can be shown that it will, then I think your argument against his candidacy will be quite powerful. Otherwise, this discussion we are having is fruitless.”

I live in Las Vegas and have worked with a number of Mormons in power positions both in business and politics. The God-man belief has with high frequency led to destructive cracks in their ego that affected their organizations. I’ve witnessed embezzlement, nepotism and physical threats that stem from a belief that they stand above their fellows because of a divine mandate. I believe Harry Reid’s hubris and traitorous actions are a prime example of this mentality (I call it ‘getting your planet early’), but I don’t suggest he is the only example.

Are Mormons the worst humans on planet Earth? Certainly not, I have not claimed that and they do have traditions that are commendable. What I have instead claimed is that the disconnect between their faith and reality leads to leadership failure at crucial moments. While this may not matter at the level of Governor or senator, I believe this instability is a disqualifying factor at the presidential level.

[MHGinTN]

Are Romney's core beliefs on governmental issues evidenced in his time as Governor of Massatwosh!ts? if they are, then we have a source for deciding if he's too liberal or not. From looking at the policies he dealt with there, I'd say he didn't reflect the conservative values of everyday Mormons, but instead compromised too much to get along with the liberal state. How will that effect his dealing with an entire nation now set at each other's throats by the dnc who lives by divide and conquer?

We can't even fight and finish properly a conflict in Iraq because the dnc leadership view it as a means to trash the administration and the military in order to empower democrats. How will Romney's past compromising methodology effect our antion in the war on terror? Are there a significant number of Mormons running defense related industry outlets? Is there a proven bias for doing business between Mormons as opposed to other people not of Mormonism?

Are there a significant number of Mormons running major corporations who will expect compromise for business purposes from Romney?

Will the seating of subpreme court judges be a compromise with liberalism in order to get nominations through the Senate?

Will appeasement creep in when a Romney presidency deals with a hostile democrat party hell bent on dividing the nation at any cost to empower democrats? THOSE are relevant questions for voters.

Mitt Romney's religious affiliation is relevant only in so far as it would (if it would) impact his decisions in areas such as mentioned in the above questions. Is there any evidence that his compromises with liberalism in Massatwosh!ts resulted from flaws in character created by Mormon beliefs or favoring fellow Mormons? If there are, we ought to discuss them now, before the dnc gets the chance to exploit them to empower a dnc presidency.

[x]

I didn't say Joseph Smith was a saint, just that it's wrong to take a sentence out of context and make him out to be worse than the vast majority of other 19th century Americans on race and slavery.

On those specific issue, he was better than the vast majority of his countrymen.

Whatever else was wrong about Smith, he didn't exclude Blacks from his priesthood, and he went further in his belief in racial equality than most of his countrymen.

More here

[FastCoyote]

“Is there a proven bias for doing business between Mormons as opposed to other people not of Mormonism?”

I can’t speak for Mitt in Mass, but I do know that here in Vegas there are situations where there is a bias towards Mormons by Mormons in charge. The McCarran Airport concessions are such a situation.

The backroom business network that has the Bishops as a conduit is a well known factor here.

[restornu]

And what you are trying to do is shove Mitt Romney down our throats as if all the bizarre covenants and crystal gazing mean nothing.

How is that did someone take away your vote?

If we weren’t discussing a presidential campaign, I could care less what you do. You could worship a Golden Ox for all I care, just don’t pretend there are no significant differences between your religion and traditional Judeo-Christian thought that have profound impact on how we are governed.

You know that is not true! Over the years you have taken pop shots at the LDS!

Right in the middle of this paragraph you are passing judgement on my faith when the constitution said there shall be NO religious test!

[FastCoyote]

“I didn’t say Joseph Smith was a saint, just that it’s wrong to take a sentence out of context and make him out to be worse than the vast majority of other 19th century Americans on race and slavery.”

But the “Prophets” who followed Joseph Smith were not so kind as quoted repeatedly. And if you believe as I do that Joseph Smith literally was talking through his hat when he made up the BOM, well it contains the references to the color black being a mark by God.

And you miss too that these are “Latter Day Saints”, while Smith and his cohorts may have been better in comparison to contemporaries, THEY WISH TO BE CONSIDERED Saints and Prophets. As such, they must be judged by their exalted status, and by that measure they fall far far short.

If Joseph Smith is not a saint, and he defrauded people at Kirtland, and he made up his hieroglyphic translation, then the likelihood that the BOM is an utter fraud calls into question the whole Mormon Church.

I am a Lutheran. The fact that Martin Luther was a beer drinker and carouser and a bit of an anti-semite is well known, BE HE NEVER TRIED TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS A SAINT. Nort so Smith et. al. - so upon his validity rides the whole Mormon Structure. Pull out that card and everything collapses, that’s why Mormons have to spin so hard to keep the whole thing from imploding.

[restornu]

“I didn’t say Joseph Smith was a saint, just that it’s wrong to take a sentence out of context...

You still are using the term saint as the world interpretation, the word saint means nothing like that. Your mindset is grounded in the world!

Saints are those who took Jesus name upon them and under the covenant of Jesus Christ!

And you miss too that these are “Latter Day Saints”, while Smith and his cohorts may have been better in comparison to contemporaries, THEY WISH TO BE CONSIDERED Saints and Prophets. As such, they must be judged by their exalted status, and by that measure they fall far far short.

Another misnomer of yours FastCoyote, a prophet is only a prophet when he is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, elsewise he is a man like anyone else!

[MHGinTN]

"Pull out that card and everything collapses, that’s why Mormons have to spin so hard to keep the whole thing from imploding." Actually, as the quote from one leader of the Mormon flock showed when he discovered the fallacies of Smith with the book of Abraham fakery, keeping the faithful from finding out the fallacies undergirding the religion is now considered the reason for leadership by at least some of the leaders in the know. If the religion is not from God giving them the claimed authority, what are they left with for their flock? Consider the flock.

Think of what a heartache it would produce in individuals, communities, and states perhaps even the nation (most Mormons vote conservative) were the leadership to stop opposing the revelation of facts regarding the fraud of Smith and some others that followed. Do we want to bring about such a devastation just to claim a victory over heresies? ... It is something to think about, FC.

If this religion called Mormonism is of Satan in disguise at its very start, isn't Satan's goal the destruction of faith, the destruction of human souls with dispare and doubt? Why help it along when to tolerate it for a season allows some to come out of the heresies without destroying families, communities, states, and perhaps conservative empowerment in America. Oppose Romney if you wish, but to seek the destruction of indivudals' religious faith when dispare will be the obvious overwhelming result that will follow, well, that is not good for US or in US.

[nowandlater]

Ok, maybe we should test Mormons before they can run for president.

We should ask them does your faith make you feel like you are above the law?
Or maybe we should ask, do you feel like you can not make mistakes?
Or we can ask will you display favoritism to your fellow believers?
Or can we ask if he feels his above his fellow man by some sort of divine mandate?

Wait a second, Hillary would answer yes to all those questions. I guess that make her a Mormon, right?

P.S. Personally, I think our theology does not affect our behavior on these matters one iota differently from any other group. We are just like everyone else and must be judged individually. If Mitt is judged individually he passes these questions with flying colors.

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

Very true....The Catholics never were much for the segregation bit.