You said — “I want to point out that directly after the 10 commandment were offered, just a few verses below them is the penalties that directly relate to the 10 commandments.”
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I see that we’re right back to the 613 now — once again. You just can’t get away from those 613 Commandments, can you?
First you say you’re not talking about the 613 Commandments, which were given to national Israel and only the 10 Commandments apply to us (which I pointed out were really only 9 Commandments, as the Sabbath does not pertain to us and was not given to us, but to national Israel) — and now — you add back in some of the 613 again.
Boy..., take them out, put them back in again, take some more out, put a few more back in again. Where does it stop? Are we on a see-saw, or is it that you just can’t make up your mind?
Note that the 10 Commandments are in the 613 already, and you add back in some more of the 613, by the other ones you’ve listed.
Once again, those 613 were given to national Israel and since God has removed its divinely instituted sovereignty, that no longer applies to them (at least not right now, but it will later). And none of those 613 of those commandments applied to us, aside from the 9 Commandments that I’ve already mentioned, which applies to everyone (including the Jews of today).
And up above in the last post you were saying — “Ok, stop putting words in my mouth again... I said very clearly that Christians are to give place to wrath... then I very clearly explained where that “Place to wrath” was.. government authorities.. I backed up scripturally... you went weird on me.”
So, you were saying that it was basically in the “government’s hands” to carry out God’s authority. Well, in case you haven’t noticed the government has *no obligation* to carry out any of the 613 Commandments that were given to national Israel. On the other hand, the government *may* carry out whatever laws it makes and place on them whatever penalties it deems necessary to preserve order and to promote harmony. The government, in case you haven’t noticed has no obligation to carry out any of the laws which are in the 613 of national Israel.
In fact, the government *rarely* ever carries out those laws — at all. And it’s unlikely that it *ever* will.
Let’s just look and see...
First one mentioned — “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.” Well, that doesn’t happen. Most of the western nations don’t even have a death penalty at all, much less one for striking a man and him dying. In the U.S. where we do have one, it’s doubtful this would ever be the case. No, the most that may happen is 20-30 years (probably less), some time off for good behavior, and then back out and on the streets again.
Second one mentioned — “He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.” Well, that one is so hilarious to think it would ever make it into a court of law for the death penalty, much less make it into court for anything more than a fine and some “anger management classes”. Second one down and dead...
Third one mentioned — “He who kidnaps a man... shall surely be put to death.” Ha! When is the last time you heard of that one happening? If a person did get convicted for kidnapping, maybe about 10 years is all that’s going to happen, probably even less.
Fourth one mentioned — “He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.” Well on that one, we might lose 1/4 to 1/2 of the population of this country in short order. I guess that’s a good thing that doesn’t happen, or else it would have a tremendous effect on our economy. The government wouldn’t take kindly to that one.
Fifth one mentioned — “[If an unborn baby is killed] you shall give life for life.” Well, that one (killing unborn babies) is happening at the rate of 46 million killed babies every year worldwide; about 1.5 million killed babies in the U.S. alone, each year. I can see that this one is going *nowhere* either.
So much for your “governent justice” theory. It seems to be of *no effect* — not being enacted and never will be enacted.
And the reason why it *never will be enacted* (i.e., “never, never and never), is basically because we’re *not* in the “age of law” (in that particular dispensation), but we’re in the age of grace (that particular dispensation). It’s a different set of demands and obligations that God has laid down for us, in this particular dispensation and it’s not carrying out the law, as Jesus said would be done and would be fulfilled (at the time of the Kingdom Age).
Now, you can squawk all you want, add in as many of the 613 Commandments you want, take out as many of the 613 Commandments you want — and it’s never ever going to happen in the Age of Grace. Ever!
It will happen in the Kingdom Age, however. That’s why I say you simply have absolutely *no understanding* of the different “dispensations” and what God has put forth as the “test” for mankind for each of those dispensations. Because of that, you’ve totally confused national Israel, with the church and its obligations and also confused it with the government and its obligations in this Age of Grace.
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You continued and said — “It is not plausible to suppose that God contradicted Himself just a few sentences after delivering the Ten Commandments to Moses.”
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God didn’t contradict Himself. He gave those as part of the 613 Commandments to national Israel, to be carried out under God’s divinely-granted sovereignty to Israel. No contradiction there.
And today, that Israel has had its sovereignty removed by God and it will not be granted to them again, until the Kingdom Age. Thus, the difference between the dispensation of Grace versus the dispensation of the Kingdom.
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Finally you said — “I don’t care to get in a hang up with you over whether the manner of death was stoning or a millstone tied around their necks. Dead is dead.”
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Well, for one thing God has already enforced the death penalty. That’s been in effect for “sin” since the time of Adam. Nothing has changed for thousands of years on that one. And that’s what Paul talks about in regards to the law and in regards to sin and to death. He is not talking about stoning or death by government or death by millstone. He’s talking about *none* of that. Paul is talking about the death that sin produces as a judgement from God,for that sin. That is *apart* from any legal obligations to carry out some penalty by some part of the 613 Commandments which national Israel is obligated to carry out.
And in terms of any “government” carrying it out — in case you haven’t noticed — that is *not* being done either. So, national Israel isn’t doing it, our government isn’t doing it, the rest of the world isn’t doing it.
Well, I wonder why that is? Well, it could be that we’re in the age of Grace (that dispensation) and because national Israel has had its sovereignty removed by God until the Kingdom age.
Oh, by the way, I would not be “holding my breath” waiting for it to happen either. You might die in the process of not breathing. It’s not going to happen until the Kingdom age arrives....
You are the one that can't see that the verses I linked deal DIRECTLY with the 10 commandments, not the 600+ items like shaving you brought up.
Thou shall not murder.. covers most of those I posted.. " "Honor your father and your mother the other" ...
The 10 Commandments are etched in stone, the penalities were somewhat unavailable to fit as you might imagine. But were somewhat very suggested in them...
I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. EX 20:5-6
for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Ex 20:7
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long ......" EX 20:12
When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." Ex 20:18
Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." Ex 20:20
Then in the next three chapters he further explains a lot of circumstances that might arrive in trespassing of those commandments..
Points can be made that yes, some do relate directly to only their heritage, some directly do relate to how todays courts should rule in similar instances. (ie. abortion as it pertains to murder of innocent life).
Even kidnapping can be included under "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." EX 20:17
Some of these codes have made their way into our justice system.. some not..
"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens [a] after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed. EX 22:2
Others one can truly say are Jewish fitting only... and were later modded to fit.
"You must give me the firstborn of your sons. 30 Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day." EX 22:29-30
But the wisdom of a strong justice system with tough penalties I will not bother arguing with you. I see it's advantages, you may not. God did.
Some offer great gems to society...
"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit." Ex 23:2
Again this can be tracted back to EX 20.. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
Some are directly un-PC in todays terms.. but God sure didn't mind at the time... I guess you were not allowed to claim bankruptcy back then... you paid with servitude when deemed.
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. EX 21:20
Manners of death as penalties were probable varied.. but stoning was an option.. most were left blank on how exactly to do the death penalty.
"If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death" EX 21:28..
Gotta go to work, will read your posts if I get a chance tonight.