Replies

I had a break between meetings and even though I had intended not to post today due to my schedule, I cannot resist your post.

I will try to address some of your points. If the Christian religion or the Mormon religion, or any other religion, does not have doctrines that define what the fundamental beliefs of that religion are, then that religion is meanlingless. Would you agree?

Yes, a church that does not define itself is meaningless. However, not every church that defines itself is meaningful. I am going to use the word church because Religion can mean either the philosophy, or the structure, where church is more specific. I think the difference between the two is very important to this discussion, so I am trying to be very clear here.

If we as Christians say that our doctrines and fundamental beliefs do not define Christianity, and that pretty much anyone with beliefs and doctrines that differ from ours (to a small or large extent) can call themselves Christians, then isn’t the name Christian meaningless?

Interesting, who exactly “owns” the word Christian? Is it you? Some group? Some organization? You seem to speak as if you own Christ, and not the other way around. You assume you are in the group called “Christianity” without requiring qualification, then that you have the right to set the “rules” for who is in this group.

There is a difference between a “religious philosophy” and a “church”. Indeed there are several branches of Buddhism with radically different beliefs, but they are all Buddhist because they believe in Buddha. Likewise, there are many branches of Christianity, holding different tenants to be true, often with some fundamentally different beliefs, and they are all “Christian” because they all believe in Jesus Christ.

Churches on the other hand can have tightly controlled beliefs, and can and should determine who their members are as well as be concerned about their reputations the “church” can even be said to belong to those who set the rules for they can kick you out of it.

If you don’t like what other churches teach, you can start your own, churches are like that. Churches generally ascribe to a “religious philosophy”, but a church cannot “own” a ”philosophy” even if they “invented” it for philosophy is an intangible. So another church may come along and join or oppose your churches’ philosophy and you cannot stop them.

Christian churches are Christian because they believe in Jesus Christ. Historically wars have been fought over which “Church would prevail and thus be “Right”. I had thought we Christians got all that out of our systems with the Crusades.

Would the same not be true of Mormonism or any religion?

No, it would be true of the Mormon Church.

I do not mean to judge your heart, or the heart of any Mormon.

Then stop telling me what I believe, for in truth you cannot know. Listen to my words about my faith, for it is all you can truly know about my beliefs. Indeed, my beliefs may on may not be within the mainstream of my church, and without talking to me you will not know.

I am quite sure that a majority of Mormons believe that they are Christians and are very sincere.

I am quite sure that you are also sincere which is why I am replying to this post even though I really do not have the time.

But I have to tell you that it is as plain as the sky is blue that the beliefs or Mormonism do not agree with the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.

Unless you are Jesus Christ, you cannot say that. You can say we are not part of whatever church you belong to, but my Christianity is not for you to decide. You have carefully couched your words to try to make this not you judging us for our fitness to be called “Christian” but you are.

I really do say that with regret and humility.

Is it possible to usurp Christ’s authority to say who is his with humility? (Understand I do not mean this as a dig, merely how your actions will most probably be perceived by those you exclude from the kingdom of God in your mind.)

But I think you can see how it would be easy for you to identify a religion that does not line up with the doctrines of the LDS,

Yes, and they are not members of my church (or not for long, grin), but that does not exclude them from being Christian. There are some other churches that use the book of Mormon; I do not deny them that right. There are others that believe that they cannot be poisoned by snakes, I don’t stop them from practicing their beliefs. I also will never tell any man he cannot be Christian because it is simply not my place to say.

so I’m sure you can see where I and other Christians are coming from.

Since you asked, I can’t see where you are coming from, to me your position is in direct opposition to the Bible, and illogical to boot. I will however allow you to occupy that position and still agree that you may well believe in Jesus Christ and be doing your best as a Christian. I do wish however you would afford me the same right

You are right, membership in a religion does not lead to salvation.

I am glad we can agree on something. Go with God, may he lead you in his paths until you are filled with his knowledge.

Thank you for replying even though you were very busy today. You certainly aren’t obligated to reply if you don’t want to, no worries.

I have been using the word “religion” because that is what Christianity is. Sure, there are different denominations and churches within Christianity, but we all have the fundamental doctrines of Christianity in common.

Let me speak a little more to that. There are doctrines of Christianity that are fundamental, as in non-negotiable. Then outside of those core doctrines, there are differences among churches and denominations about issues that are outside of this core. For example, some denominations believe speaking in tongues is welcome in the worship service, while others believe it should be for private worship only, while still others believe it is not a spiritual gift for today at all. There is room within Christianity for some diversity on these non-core issues. But we all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.

Tell me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that the differences between Christian churches is one of the big problems that Mormons have with Christianity. Is this true? Is it not at the heart of the revelation that Joseph Smith supposedly received? And do Mormons consider themselves another “Christian church” or denomination?

As to who “owns” the word Christian, it is orthodox Christians. That seems like a funny question to me. Who owns the word Mormon? And who gets to determine who is Mormon and who is just someone using the name without accepting the core doctrines of Mormonism? We are back to my already-posted points.

I don’t assume I am in the group called Christianity. I know I am part of the group. I accept and acknowledge all of the core Christian doctrines. That seems pretty simple to me. Just like Mormons know they are Mormon because they accept and acknowledge the doctrines of the LDS. Right?

All Christians are not Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ. They are Christians because they believe in all of the core doctrines of Christianity. There are lots of people and groups who could claim to believe in Jesus, but like I said before, if they believe he came to earth in a space ship and believe salvation comes through good singing, then they are not Christian.

To be continued...

I don’t think Christian churches have tightly controlled beliefs as you say. The core doctrines are shared by all Christians. I guess we don’t see the differences between churches as being that big of a deal. You are right, churches can control who are members and who they can kick out if they want to. But again, it is Christianity that defines us, not our church or denomination so much.

You are right, I don’t know what you personally believe, and that is why I am trying to speak in general terms about Mormons and Christians. I don’t mean to tell you what you believe. The beliefs of the LDS are out there for people to read about, and are not secret, right? So people can know them.

Tell me if I am wrong, but you seem to think that Christians cannot know if they are really Christians or not. I think we can know, and we do know. If we didn’t have some defining doctrines, then we couldn’t know. But we do have defining doctrines, and therefore we can say if a religion/denomination/church is Christian or not. That is not judging, although I can see how it would feel that way. It is simply a matter of whether or not a religion/denomination/church accepts the core doctrines of Christianity or not. Very simple.

Again, if I say I am a Mormon, but I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, but instead believe that Bob Dylan was a prophtet of God and that his writings are sacred, am I a Mormon? How do you know?

If the only difference between Mormons and Christians was that Mormons believe Joseph Smith was the prophet of God, that in itself is enough to say Mormonism does not agree with the core doctrines of Christianity. Same goes for the BOM, that in an of itself does not agree with the core doctrines of Christianity. And that’s just two things for starters. There are many more. That is why I said that it is plain as the sky is blue that Mormonism does not agree with the core doctrines of Christianity.

I am not doing my best as a Christian, because our salvation is not based on being a good Christian or our own works, it is a free gift.

Yes you are certainly free to seek and understand God as you see fit. I am not trying to change your beliefs. God be with you. :-)