They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[tantiboh]

“I am curious, do Mormons read the Bible often, either in worship, study groups, or for personal edification?”

Good question. We study it frequently; it stands side-by-side with the other scriptures.

I am a Sunday school teacher. Last year, we studied the Old Testament. This year, we’re studying the New Testament. Last week, we spoke at length about the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

The Book of Mormon is no -replacement- to the Bible. It is a -companion- to the Bible.

[tantiboh]

This is twice in one day you have quoted a poster without pinging him.

Do be polite.

[MHGinTN]

I make it a practice to choose to whom I ping. I don’t abide smartaleck baiters. A rude, ridiculing, mischaracterizing, condescending, arrogant poster is due no courtesy in my book. If Jim Robinson wants me to do what you suggest, he can tell me to do so, but until then I will freely drag and paste quotes from posts as I choose.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

There is a difference between a Muslim learning the truth about Christ and rejecting it, and a Muslim who has never learned about Christ.

It is the rejection of Christ, the turning away from the faith, a resolve to ignore the gospel that God finds unacceptable.

A Muslim who learns the truth about Christ and believes it, will no longer be a Muslim. He will be a Christian. Having the opportunity to learn of God’s all-encompassing love, this Muslim would have no choice but to believe on faith. It is this conversion that makes God rejoice.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

You can’t have it both ways.

Romney, an adherent to Mormonism, which believes it is the ONLY faith, believes that ONLY MORMONS receive heavenly awards.

So, anyone who doesn’t believe in Mormonism, ISN’T going to enter into the grace of God. They will be rejected as unworthy. A rejection from God ONLY leads to one place... the alternative.

To deny what the alternative is denies the Bible. The Bible clearly states, if you don’t accept God, you’ve chosen the devil. It’s as plain as day.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT LOSING CREDIBILITY.

In 2006, the Democrats won overwhelmingly and Pelosi has her chair and of course Reid has the Senate majority seat. That in itself does not bode well for the next election.

No Democratic incumbent was defeated in 2006 and not one Democratic-held open seat was lost, in either the U.S. Senate, U.S. House, or with regards to any governorship. The Democrats now hold the majority of Governorships in the nation.

In 2004, it came down to the state of Ohio, and was closer than most ever anticipated.

In 2000 it came to a hair’s breath.

Now, to think that the Democrats are losing credibility is foolhardy. They play HARDBALL... something the Republicans are hesitant to do. The more the Democrats do this, the more traction they gain.

The next election will be fought tooth and nail. I hope you will be prepared when the time comes. Now is not the time to sit idly by on the sidelines. At this juncture, the race for the Executive, Legislature and Judicial Branches are not rudimentary exercises. What is needed is the spirit and the will to pull out all of the stops. It is time to fight for the soul of the nation.

[sevenbak]

Hilarious that a Jewish/Indian used the word “Christ” so often, since Christ is the Greek title for Savior, and wan’t even in existence until Jesus Christs time. Andyet you claim this 2 Nephi was written when??

Color, as a former member you should know this, perhaps your so ingrained in the opposition sites so much you have forgotten. ;-)

Jesus Christ's name was known among the Nephites because they were Gods people, of the house of Israel (tribe of Joseph) and had been specifically told and shown His day. It was translated into English within the last 2 centuries, not 2000 years ago.

[sevenbak]

On the other hand, "Yo Mitt, 'member me your cousin Don Carlos?"

You may know my neighbor. I won't give his name, but he wrote Mitt's biography after the Olympics, his middle name is Mitt and he is a nephew to Gov. Romney.

[sevenbak]

When Al Sharpton told Paula Zahn that blacks weren’t allowed the priesthood until 1978, she told him that cnn’s researchers claim that it was actually 1965. ???

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/09/romney.sharpton.ap/index.html

Perhaps the Church didn’t give CNN that information. I wonder where they got it? Do you have any idea?

So now you are passing on media reports without looking for substantiation? Surely you know better. I work in the media, and even I know better!

Osama gets his news from CNN too.

[sevenbak]

Perhaps we should.
Tell me all you know about the biblical Urim and Thummin, here’s some references to help you start.

Lev. 8:8 also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.
Ex. 28: 30 put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim.
Num. 27: 21 ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim.
Deut. 33: 8 Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one.
1 Sam. 28: 6 Lord answered him not, neither by . . . Urim, nor by prophets.
Ezra 2: 63 (Neh. 7: 65) stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
Rev. 2: 17 (D&C 130: 10) white stone, and in the stone a new name.

[tantiboh]

We agree; but what will happen to the Muslim who never gets the opportunity? There have been many.

[tantiboh]

“The next election will be fought tooth and nail. I hope you will be prepared when the time comes. Now is not the time to sit idly by on the sidelines. At this juncture, the race for the Executive, Legislature and Judicial Branches are not rudimentary exercises. What is needed is the spirit and the will to pull out all of the stops. It is time to fight for the soul of the nation.”

I agree; and I entirely agree that Republicans have been timid. I think that has been a major factor in the elections. Essentially, the conservative base fired the Republicans. I’m still convinced that we hold a significant majority.

[sevenbak]

I agree about the fruits. I think we can also test the spirits by whether or not what they say is consistent with the Bible. And I think spiritual discernment and our intellect can also be used.

Well said. I would only add that one should make God central to any such quest. .. and in so doing, be willing to accept his will as his spirit wispers to us. Trying to decipher truth without the Holy Ghost is problematic.

Neh. 9: 20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them.

John 5: 32 (Acts 5: 32) there is another that beareth witness of me.

John 15: 26 when the Comforter is come . . . he shall testify of me.

Acts 2: 37 (Acts 2: 41) they were pricked in their heart.

1 Cor. 2: 11 things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Cor. 12: 3 no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[Saundra Duffy]

I don’t think it’s kosher to dredge up junk about another person’s faith, out of context, for the purpose of trying to hurt another person’s walk with the Lord. For one thing, it won’t work.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

There are people around the planet that never have learned of Christ... His life and His work on the cross. I think of Asia or the Middle East in particular. In China Christianity is growing rapidly... and yet, having such a large population, it truly hasn’t spread deep enough.

The people who never hear of Christ, generally tend to believe in “something”. If this is a version of God that they have a relationship with, I believe He offers it protection and the ability to grow in depth. God wouldn’t cast an uneducated person aside and damn them from disbelief... a disbelief of something they had never had an inkling of.

I firmly believe that God takes each and every human being from the place where they stand and works in their lives. He is charitable and loving towards those who commune with Him. He will lead those to a greater understanding of His nature.

[Saundra Duffy]

In my article, I forgot to mention (when I listed all the good atributes of the LDS Church) - I forgot to list the availability of the LDS Family History Centers around the world where anyone is welcome to research their family tree/heritage for free - no string attached. Millions of people have been able to use these resources to complete their family trees.

Many African Americans have been able to trace their ancestry back to plantations and some can trace back further to the slave ship trade. I have read about many successful endeavors in this regard.

It is a wonderful service that the Church provides and I am very proud to mention it here.

[tantiboh]

“The people who never hear of Christ, generally tend to believe in “something”. If this is a version of God that they have a relationship with, I believe He offers it protection and the ability to grow in depth. God wouldn’t cast an uneducated person aside and damn them from disbelief... a disbelief of something they had never had an inkling of.

I firmly believe that God takes each and every human being from the place where they stand and works in their lives. He is charitable and loving towards those who commune with Him. He will lead those to a greater understanding of His nature.”

I agree; indeed, here are the words of mine that started this small discussion between us:

“We believe that the Celestial Kingdom - what you refer to as “heaven” - is attainable to EVERYBODY who follows Christ as best as they know how. Be that person Mormon, Orthodox Christian, Muslim, or pagan Bushman.

God judges us according to the desires of our hearts, not the knowledge of our minds.”

I’m glad we could find common ground on this point.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Common ground may be rare, but it is appreciated. :)

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Again... how can you follow Christ and be a Muslim?

Christ is the Savior.

Muslims believe He was a prophet.

BOTH sentences cannot be true. Because of that, the Muslim belief is false... and only the Christian belief can be true.

If Islam is therefore false, and you add to it Mormonism... you are effectively adding false belief to your faith system. How do you reconcile that? Doesn’t false belief in Allah run contradictory to Mormonism? Where in the BOM or other Mormon works did Smith say Allah is Great?

[DelphiUser]

I said:IF we believed that, then it might be a problem, but since we don’t, it isn’t. I thought we had agreed not to tell people what they believe…

You said:OK. It's "correction" time on my assumptions. Please correct my following assumptions, since you indicate they are in error (open invite to set me straight):

Very well, I accept (princess bride :)

My assumptions are based on the following:
Assumption (a) The Heavenly Father of the LDS has a body of flesh & bones as he was born of physical parentage;

Really simplified, but really really close too.

(b) Either his parents were gods (of which there is a line of authority) [See Mormon Doctrine, p. 516: "This doctrine that there is a mother in heaven was affirmed in plainess by the First Presidency of the Church...when...they said..'that all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother'"]...Note: since many LDS use "image" of Genesis to assign divinity to humanity, I suppose we can infer that when an LDS apostle talks about "similitude" re: Heavenly Father to his parentage, that they, too, were divine.

There is a patriarchal order, of which if and when you become a God you would be part of. But (and it’s a big but too) that has nothing to do with God’s authority over you as a creation of his.

I had a friend who had a company, in the company his wife was a VP and a Director (as in board of). She had a disagreement with another VP about how he was running his department. He in essence told her to go jump in a lake (politely of course) she got really mad and said “I am a Director, you WILL listen to me!” He responded, the Board only has power when it takes a vote and instructs the CEO and the CEO will give me direction. Outside the Boardroom you are a VP, just like me. She asked the CEO (her husband) to come in and said “Do you know what he just said to me?” He responded I hope it was what I told him to say when you pulled the Director bit again. The next board meeting is in one week, we will discuss it then.

He had a rocky marriage for a week.

In the board meeting, she was outvoted 11 to 1, it took a while, but eventually she acccepted it.

You are confusing God the father’s authority. As “Father”, with his authority as “Creator”

It all boils down to perspective, you have to have the right perspective or Mormon teachings will be gobbledygook to you. The eternal nature of things for example, Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever, Jesus when he fulfilled it really messed up the Jews who understood it to mean forever. David was told he would suffer eternal punishment, and then later was promised that God would not leave his soul in hell. Sounds contradictory, but if eternal punishment is “God’s punishment” then no problem. Many of the “Problems you are citing here are problems only from your perspective, not mine, and not God’s.

{snip of redundant verbiage}

OR the god Heavenly Father was/is subject to was of a previous generation of men or gods (in which a line of authority also existed).

(c)The fact that we know there's a "family" of gods out there is that Joseph Smith freely talked about a "divine council" of gods...referenced it in D&C 121 + the LDS Book of Abraham talks about gods counseling "among themselves" (chptr 5)

Again, this is a perspective problem, not a knowledge one.

“God called the Council of Gods” could also be read “God called a council of his children” or the “King of Spirits called a council of all the spirits”, I got more for this…

God the Father called the council and we as future Gods (as children of a God) were in attendance. This is the Council where Jesus was selected as Savior by God and Satan tried to usurp his calling by taking away our right to choose. This is the Council where We were all told all about our callings and the dangers we would face here on earth Temptations, flaws, everything. God laid out the plan for the universe and we as his children under Jesus would be working on creating the universe. This was where the war in heaven spoken of by John the beloved started and Satan was cast out. This was that council and you were there too.

With such a "council of gods" we know that councils and forming worlds (as is the discussion of the book of Abraham) are done with order (vs. random or chaos). Therefore, order implies authority. Design implies Designer. Some Designer had either final or original authority--even if you say it was "collectively" done.

God the Father had all the original authority he needed to create us, the universe (spiritually and physically) and start the plan of salvation with Adam and Eve. As well as carry the plan of salvation to completion. God the father is self contained he did not start the building process until all the material, manpower and whatever Gods use to create a universe with was there.

So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]

Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone.

So, please set me staight. I am simply and utterly confused how a church that puts so much absolute emphasis on priesthood authority can somehow look up at the heavenlies, and say that "lines" of authority don't exist beyond our god(s), even tho we know he wasn't the original one.

I really am trying to set you straight here, honest

It’s all in the perspective.

God is the creator of all we can see, or detect with our scientific instruments, every star, every Galaxy, everything. He is in absolute authority over his creations as he should be.

God is also our Father, he is part of a great family (as you have alluded, but he has not told us much about it because as mortals we can’t understand much and we don’t need to know. Besides, when we die and cross over to the other side of the veil we will remember it all anyway because we already knew.) An earth like ours is an eternity tested method for giving your children a body so that they can become like you, Gods.

I read a book called Citizen of the galaxy, in it the protagonist Thorby, is on a ship “Joining a free trader family” (this is extremely rare) the family is run by both a corporation and a family which are the same people. In this book you have some interesting conversations and they explain that the title you use to address someone, determines the context of the conversation. If you have a man and his younger brother where the man is captian/CEO and the younger brother is the engineer, the captain can say engineer, do X. The engineer might say, Brother, I don’t think that is a good idea. The captain may say Do it anyway, engineer, and he will say OK and do it. If he had said Captain, I don’t think that’s a good idea, he would have been in the brig.

Different hats, just like the difference when we address god, or Father.

Sometimes with Mormon Doctrine you have to look at who is being addressed how, it’s tricky, but very rewarding once you “Get it”

All of the different names for God are all the different perspectives that we would have to understand to comprehend Him. (and we don’t know them all either)

I hope I did not blow your mind, but this is what I believe, and Jesus Christ is my savior and the only hope I have of progression to become like my Lord, My God, My Father.

[tantiboh]

When you follow Christian teachings, are you not following Christ? When you are charitable toward your fellowman; when you serve others; when you are humble; when you are generous, are you not following His example? Does one have to be Christian to follow His teachings?

To the extent that one does, one is blessed with the rewards of doing so; that is a universal blessing, without regard to faith or creed.