Giuliani doubters in for Rudy awakening

The Boston Herald ^ | 03/18/2007 | Deroy Murdock

[JohnSheppard]

The same Beltway experts who declared Sen. John McCain of Arizona the GOP front-runner, even as he under-polled fellow presidential contender Rudolph Giuliani, now parrot equally dodgy concepts. When Republicans meet “the real Rudy,” they will abandon New York’s former mayor like cattle fleeing a burning barn. Then, the wobbly Washington wisdom continues, Giuliani’s three marriages, and his less-than-solidly-right-wing views on gays, guns and gametes will torpedo his buoyant presidential hopes.

These seers now detect unhappiness with the GOP aspirants. They cite a recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll in which 26 percent of Republican primary voters were dissatisfied with Giuliani, McCain and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, among others. However, 56 percent called these choices satisfactory. This mirrors the 57 percent of conservative Republicans who preferred Giuliani, versus 31 percent for McCain. More broadly, Republicans backed Giuliani by 38 percent to McCain’s 24, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich’s 10, Romney’s 8, and 2 percent each for Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee.

But what if voters like Giuliani better upon understanding his pre-9/11 performance? Educating Republicans on his complete mayoral record - and soon - may be Giuliani’s best bet for extinguishing the lingering grumbling about his candidacy.

[panaxanax]

Agree 100%.

However, some koolaid drinkers here think that Julie-Annie is, and I quote: "Rudy is in fact the only true Conservative in the race."

[LowCountryJoe]

What of the parable of the weeds amongst the wheat? The Caananite woman?

[ScubieNuc]

What of the parable of the weeds amongst the wheat? The Caananite woman?

I'm not sure what you are asking. Could you be more specific?

Sincerely

[LowCountryJoe]

Okay. Specifically, why not post the text of those two parables and then discuss how they square (or not) with you political and religious philosophies.

[AdvisorB]

What was on that sign the illegals were carrying?

[bilhosty]

"Put down the crack pipe and have your mommy dial 911."

As the article shows Rudy produced conservative result after conservative result after conservative result in the most inhospitable environment in the country. do you think W did that,did Romney do that, did McCain do that. what Huckabee, Rudy is the only candidate in the Republican race to produce Conservative results in things that are important.

[ZULU]

Its MORE than just "gun control and abortion" - BOTH significant social issues.

Its also about illegal aliens and homosexuality.

Giuliani is just a fiscally conservative Democrat calling himself a Republican - and that doesn't make him one.

[narses]

I’m pro-choice. I’m pro-gay rights, Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. “No, I have not supported that, and I don’t see my position on that changing,” he responded. Source: CNN.com, “Inside Politics” Dec 2, 1999 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Rudy_Giuliani_Abortion.htm

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES (November 14, 2006)

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: I'm pro- choice. I'm pro-gay rights.

KING: Giuliani supports a woman's right to an abortion, and back in 1999, he opposed a federal ban on late-term abortions.

GIULIANI: No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing.

KING: Immigration could be another presidential landmine. Back in 1996, Mayor Giuliani went to federal court to challenge new federal laws requiring the city to inform the federal government about illegal immigrants.

JEFFREY: He took the side of illegal immigrants in New York City against the Republican Congress.

KING: Giuliani opposes same-sex marriage but as mayor, he supported civil unions and extending health and other benefits to gay couples. He also supported the assault weapons ban and other gun control measures opposed by the National Rifle Association.

GIULIANI: I'm in favor of gun control. I'm pro-choice.

Republican Big-Wigs Support Pro-Abortion Event in NY

Pro-abortion Governor George Pataki and New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who also supports unrestricted abortion, are co-chairs of the 2000 Choice Award Presentation to be held on May 30 at the St. Regis Hotel in New York City. The event is sponsored by the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition, a group that is campaigning for the removal of the pro-life plank from the Republican National Platform.


http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200503010743.asp

[narses]

Rudy Guiliani has marched in lockstep with liberals on affirmative action, gay rights, gay marriage, gun control, school prayer, tuition tax credits, liberal immigration policies, and he's reinforced it, time and time again. Just about everytime Rudy opens his mouth, offensive liberal words come pouring out. As Mayor, Rudy put liberals in high-paid city jobs, an indication what a Rudy WH would look like. Here then is Rudy in his own words:

--The New York State Liberal Party on its endorsement of Rudy Giuliani for Mayor: "When the Liberal Party Policy Committee reviewed a list of key social issues of deep concern to progressive New Yorkers, we found that Rudy Giuliani agreed with the Liberal Party's stance on a majority of such issues. He agreed with the Liberal Party's views on affirmative action, gay rights, gun control, school prayer and tuition tax credits. As Mayor, Rudy Giuliani would uphold the Constitutional and legal rights to abortion." N.Y.S. Liberal Party Endorsement Statement of Candidate Giuliani for Mayor of New York City April 8, 1989

--On the Republican Party: "Mr. Rockefeller represented 'a tradition in the Republican Party' I've worked hard to re-kindle - the Rockefeller, Javits, Lefkowitz tradition." Rudy Giuliani told the New York Times July 9, 1992

--Village Voice Interview with Guiliani: He was asked: "What kind of Republican Is [Giuliani]? A Reagan Republican?" Giuliani pauses before answering: "I'm a Republican." Village Voice January 24, 1989

--On Attending 1996 Republican Convention: Rudy expressed his pleasure when he wasn't invited to the Republican National Convention in San Diego. "If I take three or four days off from city business, I want to do it for a substantive purpose. It didn't seem to me any substantive purpose could be served by going to the Republican convention." said Rudy. Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Page 459, by Wayne Barrett

--On Barry Goldwater: Giuliani described John Kennedy as "great and brilliant. Barry Goldwater as an "incompetent, confused and sometimes idiotic man." New York Daily News, May 13, 1997

--On President Bill Clinton: Shortly before his last-minute endorsement of Bob Dole in the 1996 presidential election, Giuliani told the Post's Jack Newfield that "most of Clinton's policies are very similar to most of mine." Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett.

--The Daily News quoted Giuliani as saying March 1996: "Whether you talk about President Clinon, Senator Dole.... The country would be in very good hands in the hands of any of that group." An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett.

[panaxanax]

"Rudy is the only candidate in the Republican race to produce Conservative results in things that are important."

LOL!! You mean like suing the gun manufacturers and trashing the 2nd Amendment?

Billy, go to your room and read up on Duncan Hunter, and stop drinking so much of that liberal koolaid.

[Caipirabob]

Yikes!!! Time for more wine!

[ScubieNuc]

Okay. Specifically, why not post the text of those two parables and then discuss how they square (or not) with you political and religious philosophies.

Well, okay, but this could get long and might be better served on the Religion forum.

First the Parable, then the explanation, then whether it squares with my political and religious philosophies.

Wheat and Tares

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Explanation of parable

Matthew 13:37-43 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Comparison to my religious and political philosophies

The good seed is the Gospel of Christ...matches

No mention of spreading democratic republic....matches

Those that don't accept the gospel of Christ will face destruction....matches

Those that accept the gospel of Christ will see the Kingdom of heaven....matches

Now, before you jump to your "tares had no choice to be tares" argument, you need to understand the context of this parable to the whole chapter of Matthew 13 and the rest of the gospel of Christ. (This get's into the discussion of Predestination/elect, which I'm willing to do, but not necessary for a political thread.)

Jesus used multiple parables to illustrate different aspects of what the kingdom of Heaven is like. It was explaining the infinite to the finite human mind. They weren't used as a stand alone explanation of all doctrines.

Canaanite woman

(I think this is what you are referencing)

Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
BR>

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice that Jesus's original purpose was to the "house of Israel." This is understood that she was a Gentile or non-Jew. However, her faith is recognized and her daughter is healed.

I don't see how you can relate this to electing Rudy. If your argument is that the gospel of Jesus is only for some, then that is defeated in not only in the original verses but also in other verses. Such as...

Romans 9:6-8 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

Romans 4:13-14 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Those who accept Jesus through faith. And that my friend is available to ALL, which is the primary message of Christians.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's a eternal message for everyone.

I see no contradiction to my religious or political philosophies.

Sincerely

[bilhosty]

Okay so he took away some guns. New York City was worse than Dodge and Abeliene. And Like Wild Bill Hickock and Wyatt Earp, Rudy cleaned it up. Earp and Hickock did not allow Guns into town at all. So I guess you think they are kool aid drinking lib's as well, right! Rudy has already said that what was right for NYC is not right for most of the rest of the country so take it easy. Rudy came through like no one else ever did in running a City. he lowered taxes and reduced government. He put away criminals and moved the porn out. he took on the MSM and kicked Arafat off of city property becuase he was a stinking terrorist. He took on PC and Al sharpton. Rudy achieved results on what was IMPORTANT. He almost made NYC livable.

[LowCountryJoe]

We can agree on the first two issues -- the ones we have already covered. But, I differ on the next two. Homosexuality: it is none of my business what two conscenting adults want to do amongst themselves...my preference is to not make a federal case of it and not have to pay social security survivor benefits for it. Do you really suppose that people choose to be homosexual given the life of torment and isolation they lead in their developmental years? Immigration: allow more immigrants to come here legally and restrict the handouts that they can recieve by the taxpayers. Immigration has always been a boon to our economy.

[pissant]

What is that "single issue" in your mind, if you don't mind explaining?

Far as I can tell the single issue is that he's a flaming liberal. THat's makes it an impossible "issue" for a conservative to swallow.

[pissant]

Things that are important, huh? What a ridiculous joke.

[pissant]

Exactly. ANd Sean Hannity is Gennifer Flowers.

[LowCountryJoe]

I will not relate the two scriptures of the gospel to a Rudy candidacy. However, I will relate the two issues that you are holding close to your vest; homosexuality (let's not pull up the weeds lest we also uproot good wheat -- let's let God be the judge on judgement day) and immigration (the Caananite woman is only seeking Jesus' help even though she is an outsider -- one with faith -- trying to improve her daughter's lot in life) Did she take anything that didn't belong to her? Was she trying to explain to Jesus that perhaps he should expand His broader border and be more inclusive to those who would be receptive to His ministry? I know this one is a stretch, but that gospel is far from being a xenophobic advocation to shun one's neighbor because of political borders.

[narses]

"he lowered taxes and reduced government."

No. He lowered some taxes which increased revenues and he SPENT the extra money growing government. He is a gun-grabbing, abortion supporting liberal. No thanks.

[narses]