[zylphed]

Ok, this is probably the kick-me-off FR post here, but I really don't see why conservatives think that we hate this country. We love this country - we're half of this country. Almost everything important that the world has done for the last half century has come out of this country. I think that the reason why FReepers and others think that we hate this country is that we acknowledge that much of what is wrong with the world has come out of this country, and Russia/China, within the last half century.

But we love what this country could be. I am an Eagle Scout. I love the flag - I have put many old flags to rest, including, one one amazing occasion, a 50x75' flag. I love the history of this country - democracy/republicanism is the default system of government due almost solely to us.

I'm involved in research at one of the ten best hospitals/biomedical research centers in the country. We're actually the top center in the country, in the world, for fetal surgery. And we're in San Francisco. Pretty much everybody here is pro-choice, pro-ES research, anti-war, well, anyway, typical Democrats.

But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever. If this war would save lives in the long run, we'd be for it. But it won't. Maybe one of the primary differences between the two camps is that we think that Iraqi civilians have just as much of a right to live as do US civilians. I actually saw somebody say, on FR, that we should have killed on the order of 600,000 Iraqi civilians - and he got nothing but positive replies in return. Why? Did the owner of a bodega in Baghdad deserve to die more than one on Church St in Manhattan on 9/11? Is there really any difference between an American and an Iraqi 5-year-old girl?

4 years of an obviously failed strategy is too much. Change tactics radically, or stop. Those are the only realistic choices.

All we have ever wanted is to let people live their lives in peace. And that includes God-fearing American Christians. We don't hate heterosexuals. We don't hate religion.

This has been your friendly 24 year old hippy with hair down to his middle back, who lives 5 minutes away from Haight-Ashbury,

[Slump Tester]

"4 years of an obviously failed strategy is too much ..."

Yeah, the terror attacks in this country have increased significantly since 9/11, haven't they?

Jeesh - talk about someone having their head up their ass!

[weegee]

Maybe one of the primary differences between the two camps is that we think that Iraqi civilians have just as much of a right to live as do US civilians.

Welcome to FR. I have news for you. We are not at war with Iraqi civillians. The insurgents come from other countries.

Al Qaeda does not fly a flag or wear a uniform so in that regard they "are" civilians but their troops are at war with Iraqi civilians. They kill more Iraqis in their attacks than US troops.

This is not the same war as the war against Saddam's Iraq. Saddam is out of power and will not return.

We waged war in Germany for 50 years after WWII. The Cold War was fought until the Berlin Wall came down.

[grey_whiskers]

What's your field of graduate work?

Are you attending UCSF or Berkeley?

Cheers!

[AntiKev]

But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever. If this war would save lives in the long run, we'd be for it. But it won't. Maybe one of the primary differences between the two camps is that we think that Iraqi civilians have just as much of a right to live as do US civilians.

I hope you mean don't want people to die of anything but natural causes. I refer you to a quote by Ray Kurzweil:

Take death for example, a great deal of our effort goes into avoiding it. We make extraordinary efforts to delay it, and often consider its intrusion a tragic event. Yet we'd find it hard to live without it. Death gives meaning to our lives. It gives importance and value to time. Time would become meaningless if there were too much of it. If death were indefinitely put off, the human psyche would end up...well...like the gambler in the Twilight Zone episode.

As for the rest of your quote, this war has saved lives. It's saved Western lives. If your government had done NOTHING after September 11th, there would quite probably have been MORE attacks like that. The thing that people on your side of the aisle don't understand is that these people live in a culture where death and hate are the norm. Take the recent article I read on FR where two young Muslim girls were put to death by their uncles after running off with two guys in a orchard. That is a key visual for the hippies, free love, guess what...these people don't believe in any of your hippie crap.

I was going to go into a long diatribe here, but thought better of it. Needless to say, there are good and peaceful Muslims, but for the most part they are the ones that have embraced Western values and culture.

4 years of an obviously failed strategy is too much. Change tactics radically, or stop. Those are the only realistic choices.

Your side won't let the proper change of tactics occur. It's called peace through superior firepower. Stopping is not an option. We stop, we lose. The problem is that we are only fighting a proxy war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The more we look at it, it is the Russians via the Iranians that we are fighting. Same war, different players. We need to get those countries sewn up so that we can concentrate on the greater threat.

The only saving grace that we have is that the Iranians dislike the Russians as much as they dislike us. The only reason that they are aligned is that the Russians will supply them and we won't.

Ugh...I didn't want to go into a long diatribe on the war.

[Rembrandt_fan]

You wrote, "Maybe one of the primary differences between the two camps is that we think that Iraqi civilians have just as much of a right to live as do US civilians."

I see that your account has been suspended, as it should've been, but I hope you're still reading this thread because your comment merits a response.

You instantly claim the moral high ground, and do so based upon a false assumption; i.e., conservatives who support the war in Iraq hold little regard for Iraqi lives--or rather, far less regard for their lives as you do, enlightened, peace-loving soul that you are. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The President could've taken a purely punitive approach, destroying the Iraqi armed forces, killing Saddam and his psychotic sons, establishing the Kurds as an independent nation-state to the north, and leaving. But no, we stayed--and we stayed for the sake of the Iraqi people, to help them rebuild their country into something peaceful, and safe, and democratic, and worthwhile. You and yours, so peace-loving, so humane, so genteel, would've been happy with the status quo under Saddam, with his gas attacks on civilians, and industrial meat shredders, and his torture chambers.

I loathe you, and despise you. I call you coward and morally bankrupt.

[sgtyork]

---one of the primary differences between the two camps is that we think that Iraqi civilians have just as much of a right to live as do US civilians.

I think one of the primary differences is that your side ignores the killing that Saddam did. As bad as the carnage has been in Iraq, it is still less deadly than when he was free to mass murder his own citizens.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm You really fell for the Michael more Iraqi's flying kites didn't you?

You also are unable to think historically and connect the end of Desert Storm 1991 (begun when he invaded Kuwait) when Saddam agreed to stop seeking WMDs. What if Saddam has listened to people like you who think of goodness and peace and used his oil money to feed his people and develop his country rather than invading his neighbors and seeking to exact revenge after we defeated him in 1991?

More (from an article in the American Thinker
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
......Let's move to today, with the U.S. in Iraq. What was Iraq doing before the U.S. invaded in 2003? Saddam had already gone to war with two neighbors, Iran and Kuwait, resulting in over a million dead. Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people; there are over 400,000 dead in mass graves throughout Iraq. He had lobbed rockets into Saudi Arabia and Israel, shot at U.S. aircraft on UN sanctioned missions and tried to assassinate former President Bush. He financially rewarded the families of suicide bombers. And he once had and used WMD, and could make them again.


Yet somehow people seem to believe that if we'd just let Saddam alone, there would be little or no violence in Iraq. Let's review. When we did leave him alone, the death count easily reached 1,400,000 or more. When we merely imposed sanctions, we were accused of causing the deaths of over half a million children. Now that we've invaded, we're chided for 3,000 American dead and perhaps some tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

We also think that you hate this country for exactly what you post....

"that much of what is wrong has come from this country - though you try to be morally equivalent and include Russia and China" (

be honest - you don't believe that Russia and China have done anything wrong do you?). Your ilk just loves the strongmen, the death camps, the executions that socialism represents. Here is what you consider US morally equivalent to... from the same article in American Thinker.

The list below is a complete listing of all alleged genocides since 1915, according to Wikipedia.


Japan 1910-45. Japanese killed 25,000,000 Chinese and enslaved millions of Koreans.

Turkey 1915-23. Turks (Muslims) killed 1,500,000 Armenians (Christians).

Soviet Union 1918-89. Soviet Communists killed 20,000,000. (Fatality count is from The Black Book of Communism.

Germany 1940-45. Nazis killed 11,000,000 Jews, Romas, homosexuals, Slavs, the mentally ill and communists.

Croatia 1941-45. Croats (Catholics) killed 500,000 Serbs
(Christian Orthodox).

China 1950-80. Chinese Communists killed 65,000,000 fellow Chinese. (Fatality count from The Black Book of Communism.)

Zanzibar 1964. Africans killed 5,000 Arabs and Jews.

Bangladesh 1971. Muslims killed 1,500,000 Hindus.

Burundi 1972. Tutsis killed 125,000 Hutus.

Cambodia 1975-79. Communist Cambodians killed 1,700,000 fellow Cambodians.

East Timor 1975-99. Indonesian military (Muslim) killed 150,000 Timors, including many ethnic Chinese.

Afghanistan 1979-89. Soviet Communists killed unspecified number of Afghans.

Lebanon (Sabra) 1982. Christians killed 750 to 3,500 Palestinians.

Sudan 1983-2007. Arab/Muslims killed over 2,000,000 Africans.

Iraq 1988. Iraq's government (Sunni dominated) killed unspecified number of Kurds.

Tibet before 1990. Communist Chinese killed unspecified number of Tibetans.

West New Guinea/Papua before 1990. Indonesian government (Muslim) killed unspecified number of Guineans/Papuans.
Bosnia 1992-95. Serbs killed at least 8,000, mostly Muslim.

Rwanda 1994. Hutus killed 937,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus.

(((Note that it has been revealed that France incited the Rwandan genocide)))

Gee where is the US on that list? But your favorites Russia and China they are near the top. And this list doesnt include countless small wars of "revolution" fostered by Russia and China. But we're just the same.


Yes, so much of what is wrong with the world has come from the US. That must be why the Poles are erecting a statue to Reagan for freeing them from communist oppression. http://gaypatriot.net/2007/02/09/reagan-statue-to-replace-soviet-monument-in-poland .

why girls can go to school in Afghanistan
http://www.care.org/newsroom/articles/2005/04/20050408_gce_afghanistanstory.asp

Why South Koreans are prosperous and North Koreans starve.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/june97/korea_6-11.html
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/2006/11/08/nkorea_starvation/

Why tens of thousands of lives were saved after the tsunami
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed011105d.cfm

You know so little. Keep coming to Free Republic and learn more about your country so will have a genuine love of your country and a realistic view of its successes and flaws.

[Dianna]

But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever.

Americans have been dying for years. See the first World Trade Center bombing, the Cole, etc. You wanted us to "understand" their rage. Saddam killed thousands. You weren't real worried about that either. Palestinians can kill all the Israelis they want. You demand that they simply take it.

You only get concerned about people dying when we decide to fight back.

Terrorists are determined to kill as many Americans as they can. They've said it over and over. They've shown us what they will do. People WILL die. We simply prefer the deaths be theirs instead of ours.

[expatguy]

"I actually saw somebody say, on FR, that we should have killed on the order of 600,000 Iraqi civilians - and he got nothing but positive replies in return. Why? Did the owner of a bodega in Baghdad deserve to die more than one on Church St in Manhattan on 9/11? Is there really any difference between an American and an Iraqi 5-year-old girl?"

War is not a pretty thing, in fact it is quite brutal.

Many people in America as well as many FReepers don't have the stomach for war. They end up asking themselves questions (like you are) as if they are somehow trying to rationalize what all is happening. Osama Bin Laden spoke often about America not having the stomach for war and how to defeat America by capitalizing on this.

Personally I don't comprehend the incessant self-debasement and handwringing over the deaths of Iraqi civilians though?

Sad to say, but I don't see any "victims" on the battlefield in Iraq. I see a battlefield infested with suppliers, supporters, spies, sympathizers and opportunists who mascarade as the "innocent Iraqi victims"

When they are not lopping off heads, where do you think all these insurgents and so-called foreign fighters eat their meals, shop and sleep for the night.

They are provided safehouses and sanctuary by these so-called "Iraqi victims" who have learned to play the innocent victim card in front of the American forces there.

I don't think we have been brutal enough. I think that America's political correctness has turned much of the battlefield into nothing more than a macabre courthouse.

[driftless2]

What is your opinion of Saddam Hussein? Why is the U.Ss. responsible for most of the evil in the world? Why do you think you're free now? How did that happen? By magic? How do you think most of the world is now free instead of living under Nazism, or communism, or Islamo-fascism? How is that possible? If you want a good discussion about what is evil in the world, I'm more than willing to converse with you.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've thought out your positions. But most of what you postulated what not backed up with facts. Civilians die in Iraq, and millions of civilians died in WWII because we went to war. Do you realize that many more millions of civlilians would have died if we hadn't gone to war? For example several hundred thousand Filipinos died while we retook the Philippines from the Japanese. Do you think Filipinos would have been happy under Japanese rule? Would you have been happy with Saddam Hussein as your leader? You'll have to think deeper than what you've been telling us so far.

[arthurus]

You are pro choice and you don't want people to die? Your contradictions are amazing just because you must have some intelligence to be doing the work you do. If you had said you don't want some people to die, I would have passed over it as sensible though reprehensible.

[TigersEye]

You don't want more Iraqis to die? Iran is backing the Shiites in order to take over Iraq. Saudi Arabia has no intention of letting that happen. If we were to pull out SA and Iran would go to war over Iraq involving the entire region. Millions would die. And all the oil fields of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and probably the few remaining oil states of the ME would go up in flames.

Forget about $4 pg gas or $6 pg gas, we would have no gasoline at any price. Americans would start dying, Europeans would start dying, Russians would start dying and I'm not talking about the inevitable armed conflicts that would result between Russia, the West and probably China and India over the remaining available oil market. People would die from the worldwide economic collapse.

You don't want other people to live in peace you want to live in peace and not think about Saddam murdering hundreds of thousands of his own little brown people. You don't want to think about 800,000 Rwandans dying by machetes because the UN helped disarm them. You don't even care that Ahmadinejad would nuke Isreal without a second thought. You could care less that the U.S. won militarily in Vietnam and pulled out because of ignorant liars like you leaving millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians to be killed by dictators, thugs and madmen.

Liberals prefer to stand back and watch millions slaughtered (Cambodia, post U.S. Vietnam, Laos, Rwanda, on and on and on...) than to take responsibility for anything. Liberal compassion is rooted in ignorance and is nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling of self-congratulatory hypocrisy. It is a major cause of suffering not a solution to it.

I am a 52 year old American hippie with hair past my belt and the 2nd Amendment engraved on my liver. You are nothing but an unAmerican unpatriotic self-serving useful idiot for the international Marxist communists who intend to enslave us all by destroying the individualism of republicanized government and replacing it with the collectivism of state-served communism.

Let me refer you to a previous castigation of your kind of intellectually vacuous moral relativism.

What's more you only represent about 15% of the left. The left is only half the electorate and the electorate is only half of the population. The only reason people like you seem like half the population is because the media likes freak shows.

[hinckley buzzard]

But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever.

Grow up, a-hole. No body is that stupid.

[hsalaw]

Cambodia 1975-79. Communist Cambodians killed 1,700,000 fellow Cambodians.

This is from the excellent post #40. This is what happened when your kind "ended" the Vietnam War. This - and more - is what will happen if your kind drives us out of Iraq. And you "don't want anyone to die - ever"? Touchy-feely arms-are-for-hugging peace-and-love feeling is nice; thinking is better. Try it sometime.

[Alkhin]

But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever. If this war would save lives in the long run, we'd be for it. But it won't.

Oh dear God - and the next thing youll tell us is that you were/are a HUGE fan of Tolkien and how HE was all about anti-war and not killing people and we should all be like Gandalf - UGH! -

I dont see how you can sit there and say that there's nothing worth dying for. There are men and women who VOLUNTEERED to be in that military fully understanding they will be sent into action because THEY BELIEVE there is somethign worth DYING for in this country...and your soft white ass is one of them. The least you can do is have the balls (or ovum) to accept that sacrifice and support their efforts to make a difference in this world.

And actually read history...but I guess thats too hard...

[demsux]

If this war would save lives in the long run, we'd be for it.

BS

[Blue Collar Christian]

"Pretty much everybody here is pro-choice, pro-ES research..."

"But we're all doing it because we don't want people to die. Ever."

Unless they're unborn and can't speak for themselves. Y'all can't call a spade a spade. You're pro-abortion (pronounced baby killers), pro-embryonic harvesting (pronounced baby farming)...and to think that half this country seems to think like you...sheesh!

You are the party of Proverbs 12:15 creating your own new (enlightened?) morality with political correctness and all.