Rudy Giuliani: [to SC Firefighters & Police] 'A Woman Has the Right to Choose Abortion'

Associated Press/Newsmax.com ^ | 2.22.07 | staff report

[Elsie]

Once, a man had a right to own an African in the United States. Rare was the politician who would come right out and say, "you don't have the right to own an African." I don't see any difference.

There ya go!

(And, after this was no longer legal, Native Americans could STILL be held as slaves in the 4 Corners area until about 1888!)

[Elsie]

I am unique, but I can be compared to you.

[tkathy]

Changing the subject and evading an answer does not address the problem.

[Elsie]

Most people evade questions, but I am so unique I evade answers!

[LtdGovt]

Do you suppose LtdGovt will finally believe he's pro-choice when he starts parading around wearing his official NARAL 'Champion Of Choice' medallion that he accepted at one of their death rallies?

But I know he's pro-choice. The question is whether he believes that abortion is a constitutional right. I don't think he does.

[LtdGovt]

You can try to justify it as being compassionate but that does not show any compassion to the innocent child.

It's amazing that you are so concerned with showing "compassion" to the unborn, even when it's a fertilzed egg that doesn't even have nerve endings. And you're willing to pain a woman who has already undergone a trial, even more. Hard to believe that you would call yourself compassionate, but who am I to judge?

[linda_22003]

Oh, I've seen posts on FR saying that the pill should be made illegal because it's an abortifacient, haven't you?

[LtdGovt]

So you view the laws against murder as protecting individual liberty. Fine, we'll use your terminology. An abortion interferes with the individual liberty of the child. It should therefore be outlawed.

Who said that I was talking about murder? I was responding to your ridiculous assertion that criminal laws codify something else than protection for other people's liberty, property or life.

It's all the same. Condoning the murder of innocents is the same, no matter what 'dress' it wears.

What a despicable showing of moral relativism. Are you saying that America is a as bad as Islamic states?

No, because you think the murder committed by Muslims is worse than the murder committed by abortionists (about a million times a year in this country alone).

Why are you preaching hatred of America? Are you a pro-life leftist? I would think that pro-life conservatives at least love America, while leftists would use anything to justifiy their hatred of America.

[LtdGovt]

If my belief in the reality of God is incorrect it won't matter a whit when I die, but if your disbelief in the reality of God is incorrect it will be the only thing that will matter when you die.

Nice rehash of Pascal's viewpoint. Do you believe in a God who would punish good people for not being Christians?

Probably long before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was published, but what does slavery have to do with the legality or illegality of suicide?

Or anything else? I don't think you can cite archaic laws as something supporting your own assertions, since another person might just well cite the slavery laws for his own purposes.

Anyway, since reading post # 349 I see that your mind is no doubt closed airtight on the abortion issue, so I will just bid you a good evening and avoid more pointless verbal jousting.

Good day, Sir.

[LtdGovt]

Great, please cite the part of the Constitution where the right to abort is found.

It does not exist. I don't support Roe. You do support prohibiting states from allowing abortions. Please cite the part of the Constitution where it says that states don't have the right to allow abortion.

[LtdGovt]

Bearing the child of a rapist, though certainly no piece of cake, would no more be a punishment by the state than the rape was.

Yes it is. The state could not have prevented the rape, with the resources it had on that particular time. However, the state could stop itself from putting a gun to a woman's head and forcing her to bear a rapist's child.

[LtdGovt]

Sickening. You're saying that when the criminal cannot be found, the woman has to bear the pain of not only seeing the man who attacked her, go free, but also to bear his child. You're an evil, evil man.

[George W. Bush]

But I know he's pro-choice. The question is whether he believes that abortion is a constitutional right. I don't think he does.

If he is pro-choice, then he is a de facto supporter of Roe since it is the flawed legal instrument by which some rather ignorant justices inflicted their uninformed views on the country decades ago. We're not talking about a constitutional amendment. We're not talking about a Court decision of substance and merit. It's a naked attempt to justify, entirely without legal argument, the practice of infanticide. But it is not a respectable decision and probably has even less merit than, say, Kelo.

Obviously, The Rudy agrees with the results of Roe even if he might, due to his association with real constitutional lawyers like Ted Olson, dispute the legal particulars of Roe. Personally, I see little of any real distinction in his record as a lawyer. I think he is a mediocre lawyer turned prosecutor turned politician, a group that should never be allowed higher office. Their record as a group runs from mediocre to just plain bad.

So whether Rudy might or might not consider Roe good constitutional law, it is a distinction without any significance either in the law or in the practice of infanticide. Well, unless you are somehow suggesting that The Rudy wants to strike down Roe and let the Congress or the states enact the exact same results as the results of popular whim. Admittedly, he might do that because he is an unprincipled autocrat, dangerous to the Constitution in the same way that LBJ and FDR were.

[Mr. Silverback]

You are correct that I have said that the Pill functions as an abortifacient in some cases (as I understand it, it depends on a large number of factors whether it truly acts as a contraceptive or prevents implantation), but I have never advocated outlawing it. This may seem inconsistent, but the bottom line is that there is a vast gulf between a drug that sometimes eliminates an embryo without any person even knowing it existed and a conscious decision to turn a kid into medical waste. There's also a vast difference between the thuggish judicial activism of Roe vs. Wade and the acceptance of the Pill by the vast majority of Americans since the time it was introduced.

I read a surprising number of posts on FR where people are spouting the "next they'll come after birth control" line that issues from NARAL and PP, and I do characterize that as paranoia. I'd be surprised if even 1% of Freepers would sign on to a campaign to ban the Pill, but even if every Freeper was on board the chances of passing such a law would be about 500 trillion to one.

[Mr. Silverback]

Oops, just re-read your post and realized (reading is fundamental!) that you were talking about what I'd seen, not what I'd written. Well, let me address that. I have seen posts on FR advocating that but it was a handfull. I've seen somewhere between several and a hundred times as many posts saying each of the following things:

1. The South should have won the Civil War because Abraham Lincoln was the greatest tyrant in American history (in threads that go on for thousands of posts)

2. George W. Bush is really a hard core NARAL-type pro-choicer

3. We should nuke every Muslim country in an unprovoked first strike.

4. The United States Navy shot down Flight 800 and hundreds of FBI and NTSB memebers helped cover it up.

5. Steve Irwin deserved to die.

No offense, but I doubt you're going to go into any thread on this board and act as if any significant number of Freepers believe those things, so why even bring up the Pill silliness? And even if every one of us wanted to ban the pill, would that change the fact that surgical abortion is dismemberment of a small child? Would it change the fact that virtually all of those kids are dismembered for the sake of convenience?

[linda_22003]

I didn't say YOU had posted that it should be outlawed. I have seen posters say (not as a warning, but happily), that once abortion is resolved, it will be time to go after birth control. I am not so paranoid that I think it will work. Very frankly, I think people have accepted the availability of abortion for such a long time, that that will not be outlawed in any uniform manner, let alone access to birth control disappearing.

I definitely agree with your "500 trillion to one" odds, and think that is acceptably small. It is just no one's business whether - or how - someone else contracepts.

[LtdGovt]

I'm not sure I'm following you. We're not talking about Rudy striking down Roe himself, as no president has that authority. We're talking about Rudy nominating judges who would overturn Roe. And I think that's what he will do, even if he agrees with the result of Roe. I think you can be pro-choice, without supporting imposing a nationwide solution.

Well, unless you are somehow suggesting that The Rudy wants to strike down Roe and let the Congress or the states enact the exact same results as the results of popular whim.

Isn't overturning Roe v. Wade one of the goals of the pro-life movement? What would you have them do, if you think that a US without Roe will have the exact same results?

[linda_22003]

6. Freepers claiming to have fathered the offspring of Anna Nicole. That thread is up to about 15,000 posts now; I figure at least half of them have to be paternity boasts.

[LtdGovt]

You have not responded to my posts. Well, then you have the opportunity to do so now. Do you think the Supreme Court should, instead of overturning Roe and returning the matter to the states, outlaw abortion nationwide?

[LtdGovt]

I have seen posters say (not as a warning, but happily), that once abortion is resolved, it will be time to go after birth control.

Well, I can't believe those people. I always what drives some people to worry so much about what other people are doing when it does not harm another person (or unborn person) - for example, using birth control.