Civil jury fines rancher in illegal-alien dispute

The Washington Times ^ | 11/25/2006 | Jerry Seper

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Obviously, skilled immigrants may have a positive net effect on Social Security,***

Skilled immigrants,(legal) have a positive effect. Unskilled are a drain.

As for Social Security, it doesn't matter if the workers are highly trained or not. It will still take three to support one, then three to support each of those three. Plug that into a calculator and see how many it will take to support ten million retirees. Each generation the workforce will have to tripple. Hence, a population increase whether we like it or not.

***the jobs "we will not do", unless they where so low paying and demeaning that only people fleeing from horrible conditions would do them.***

I started off doing stoop labor, picking green beans by hand in 110 degree heat for .34 cents a pound.
Then cleaning out chicken houses holding 20000 chickens. Backbreaking work. It was that or starve.
Today, there are much better opportunities for young people. No one wants suck guts out of chickens or shovel chicken crap in 110 degree heat any more.
Today, it is all immigrants who do this work, Everyone else now works for Walmart.(except me, I got a Good job)!



**3.) Yes, I agree, based purely on this thread, this Bartlett guy sounds like an asshole.***

From what I have read on this thread, they set a trap for him, and he stepped right in it!

My personal reason for posting on this thread is I am in favor of hunting and fishing easement rights, and opposed to having public land locked up by landowners, unless it their private land.

Nice to talk to some one with a level head instead of a knee jerk. There is enough of them around.

[Arizona Carolyn]

None of the propositions we passed go into effect before May.

[Arizona Carolyn]

I hope the supremes end up hearing this one.

[Arizona Carolyn]

Do you live in Arizona and therefore familiar with laws the State has for it's leased land? A leasee in Arizona is held liable for anyone injured on their leased land and has to have liability insurance, therefore Barnet would have been liable if one of the Morales hunting party had been injured while hunting on his leased land and that makes him within his rights to determine who can pass onto the land and who cannot.

The State is in the habit of giving out many long term leases and there is very little difference during the coarse of the lease between owning the land and being a leasee. BTW monies from lease of Arizona State Lands goes to support Arizona Schools.

[RGSpincich]

very little difference during the coarse of the lease between owning the land and being a leasee.

There may be more of a difference than you think. Properly licensed hunting and fishing is allowed on leased state lands with the restrictions noted. In addition, the state can issue other recreational permits that will allow the permitees to use leased state land.

State Land Department Programs

[outdriving]

"***Obviously, skilled immigrants may have a positive net effect on Social Security,***

Skilled immigrants,(legal) have a positive effect. Unskilled are a drain."

We are in agreement, at this point, as long as there is no family preference, as is the case since 1965. Thanks, Ted Kennedy.

"As for Social Security, it doesn't matter if the workers are highly trained or not. It will still take three to support one, then three to support each of those three. Plug that into a calculator and see how many it will take to support ten million retirees. Each generation the workforce will have to triple. Hence, a population increase whether we like it or not."

I disagree, highly trained immigrants (may) have a positive impact on social security revenues. But, by the same token, the doubling of Social Security taxes in the eighties insured that Social Security would be solvent beyond the middle of the century, given the demographic projections at the time. It is Medicare that is the real problem. Look it up. That is what a population increase is all about. But low income people do not offset indigent health care by contributions, especially considering a lack of health insurance, high birthrates, and chain migration of older or infirm relatives.

"***the jobs "we will not do", unless they where so low paying and demeaning that only people fleeing from horrible conditions would do them.***

I started off doing stoop labor, picking green beans by hand in 110 degree heat for .34 cents a pound.
Then cleaning out chicken houses holding 20000 chickens. Backbreaking work. It was that or starve."

Think about it. Did these jobs get done before WWII? And by who? Were these a stepping stone for Americans instead of just immigrants?

"Today, there are much better opportunities for young people. No one wants suck guts out of chickens or shovel chicken crap in 110 degree heat any more.
Today, it is all immigrants who do this work, Everyone else now works for Walmart.(except me, I got a Good job)!"

Well, there are many many Americans who work for Walmart instead of sucking guts out of chickens. But there is one American who does not have your "good job". A native you have displaced. That is the whole problem. Understand? Nothing personal, you are obviously a model immigrant. But the whole notion that immigrants are only doing jobs "Americans won't do" is BS, right? How many Americans would love your job?.

"**3.) Yes, I agree, based purely on this thread, this Bartlett guy sounds like an asshole.***

From what I have read on this thread, they set a trap for him, and he stepped right in it!

My personal reason for posting on this thread is I am in favor of hunting and fishing easement rights, and opposed to having public land locked up by landowners, unless it their private land."

Well I'm an urban kind of guy, so I can't speak to the legal issues in this case. But it IS obvious that we wouldn't be talking about it if it wasn't for illegal immigration. To be honest, I am suspicious of your motives, given your positions, but since I am the product of a Western European background, I will grant you the benefit of the doubt.

"Nice to talk to some one with a level head instead of a knee jerk. There is enough of them around."

Thank you, I am looking forward to debating you some more.

[Theo]

Don't we all just lease land from the government? Try not paying your property taxes and see how quickly they'll take it back.

[Arizona Carolyn]

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. Around here very little isn't either State, BLM or Indian Land..

[Arizona Carolyn]

BTW, the Navajo tribe has cracked down significantly on allowing permits for people to even hike across their lands because of all the trash being left behind...

[rock58seg]

BullS--T. When you lease something, You Purchase control and the right to limit access until the lease is up. These asses were trespassing and should have been fined accordingly. No amount of MALDEF spin on your part changes that. Even in the face of an O.J. Jury.

Try walking through your local Army Ammo Dump, That's government property also.

[Thunder90]

The ACLU presented the lawsuit and went judge and jury shopping (AKA a KLintoon appointee judge) and won.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

*** the doubling of Social Security taxes in the eighties insured that Social Security would be solvent beyond the middle of the century, given the demographic projections at the time.***

Do the math, 10 million retirees require 90 million workers to support them. 90 million retirees require 180 million workers to support them. 180 million retirees require 540 million workers. by then the SS system will be beyond bankrupt. The working population must expand, like it or not.

***Think about it. Did these jobs get done before WWII? And by who? Were these a stepping stone for Americans instead of just immigrants?***

These jobs were done by local people who made a career of it. There were no other jobs other than farm work. The pay was too low to be able to escape. So it was work or starve. (Then Sam Walton upset their applecart). When the CHICKEN MAN could not find workers because of his starvation wages(Thank you Sam Walton) he started importing Mexicans back about 1970. the children of these Mexicans are now American Citizens and they don't want to work for the Chicken man. they also have good jobs.

**Well, there are many many Americans who work for Walmart instead of sucking guts out of chickens. But there is one American who does not have your "good job". A native you have displaced.***

Then they should have put in an application for the job back in 1976 like I did. as for displacing natives, we have several American Indians working here so no natives were displaced.

** To be honest, I am suspicious of your motives, given your positions, but since I am the product of a Western European background, I will grant you the benefit of the doubt.***

If it is a genology you want my ancesters came to the Americas from England sometime before 1819. lived and worked accross the south, foght on the loosing side in the Civil war, settled in texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico.
I have probably read more books of Western civilization than you can count. Needless to say in terms of race I am of ANGLO-SAXON descent. Yes, a lilly white.
Just because I use the name Ruy Diaz de Bivar don't let it fool you. Find out who the Ruy guy was in history.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***BTW, the Navajo tribe has cracked down significantly on allowing permits for people to even hike across their lands because of all the trash being left behind...***

Over in NM near Chaco Canyon there are millions of acres of PUBLIC LAND to hunt on. Problem is it is cut up into checkerboard squares of Navajo owned land and not a fence, tree, marker for miles and miles. One almost needs a GPS location device to know where they are and what land you are on. These squares do not show up on the road maps, but on the ownership maps.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**Don't we all just lease land from the government? Try not paying your property taxes and see how quickly they'll take it back.***

Well, like the Bible says, all land belongs to God. he just lets us occupy it for a while.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**BullS--T. When you lease something, You Purchase control and the right to limit access until the lease is up.***

Go back over this thread, read the links to the game and fish commission and the lease laws for Az.
Ther is quite a difference between Government public land and Government National Security areas.

[Mojave]

Ther is quite a difference between Government public land and Government National Security areas.

"State Trust lands are often misunderstood in terms of both their character and their management. They are not public lands, but are instead the subject of a public Trust created to support the education of our children. The Trust accomplishes this mission in a number of ways, including, through its sale and lease of Trust lands for grazing, agriculture, municipal, school site, residential, commercial and open space purposes." --Arizona State Land Department

You're persistently dishonest.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***You're persistently dishonest.***

I only read what the newspapers and internet report about this incident. Take it up with them.

[R. Scott]

I was thinking of many of the Latino protestor groups. They wish to retake the American Southwest and form the “paradise” of Atzlan.

[peyton randolph]

I was thinking of many of the Latino protestor groups. They wish to retake the American Southwest and form the “paradise” of Atzlan.

---

Which plays right into the hands of the CFR/open borders lobby that will never let Atzlan be formed but want these cretins to promote illegal immigration until the border is erased/meaningless.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

"This is an historic moment," said Jennifer Allen, director of the Border Action Network. "This victory is just the beginning. We can guarantee that every official who tried to sweep this case and issue under the rug and who still has the capacity of bringing criminal charges will hear from us."

Gee, that's really wonderful. Not only are illegal aliens free to trash a person's private property, propagate the drug trade, and threaten citizens, they'll face frivolous lawsuits for trying to put a stop to it.