Posted on 11/20/2006 6:51:30 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
obviously, no felon is going to get caught as easily as the first time.....
so we don't really know how many kids have been hurt, now do we?
Most of it is a state park - just a few privately-owned ranches on the fringes that are still possible development sites. Seeno may be crooked, but they won't be building on any part of Mt. Diablo that's visible. This shot I took from the summit a few weeks ago shows where most of the development is - in Clayton on the north side, nowhere near the top:
I can't force you to accept facts, only pass them along.
If that is true then why do we have so many damn repeat offenders who commit their crimes again and again?
Because those are the ones you hear about. The offenders who stop and those who are rehabilitated don't make the evening news.
It's the same reason you don't hear about the good things happening in Iraq: Good news is no news.
Nice try, but that's not how the study works.
Of course it doesn't. How could it do that?
Do you believe in rehabilitation enough to trust 87% of these convicts with your own children?
I do not and would not ever encourage anyone to blindly trust their children with a known sex offender, rehabilitated or otherwise. I suspect that many previous sex offenders probably don't trust themselves around children either.
But that wasn't the original question I was debating, was it?
...5 yrs old
...(1996)
Why does the age of the study matter? Have sex offenders recently changed their habits? I don't see any reason to dismiss these studies based on their age.
I think it was a really bad decision too. I also wouldn't trust my children with a known child sex offender.
My ex-roomie's brother is a repeat offender, let out twice, and each time he went back in for sex offenses. He was able to convince the authorities twice that he was rehabilitated.
There are always anecdotes on either side of an issue, otherwise everyone would believe the same way.
Like the guy who asked why we hear about so many repeat offenders, the answer to this is pretty much the same. You don't know about the truly rehabilitated ones, precisely because they are successful. The news isn't going to broadcast a breaking story about how 37 previous sex offenders in Metro Denver did NOT molest anyone last month. It's only the failures that make the news.
Well, my diatribe has to deal with convictions, since this our justice system mostly presumes innocence until guilt is proven. Would you rather change that and throw folks in jail without a trial?
What words would be more acceptable to you for me to use?
obviously, no felon is going to get caught as easily as the first time.....
That's obvious to whom, exactly? Since a convicted sex offender has his name, face and address posted all over town and in zillions of computers, I'd say it's probably easier to catch him the next time.
so we don't really know how many kids have been hurt, now do we?
You're right, we don't. But what's your point? Does this uncertainty give us all permission to grab the torches and pitchforks so we can go hunt down everyone we suspect might molest children? Should we treat all sex crimes equally, stringing every last one of them up?
The reason I'm debating this at all is not to minimize the seriousness of sex crimes or to defend those who commit them. But this subject seems to be one where all sense of reason regularly gets thrown out the window and people just want someone's head on a platter.
I just wanted to point out some actual facts in the hope that reason could make some headway against the raw emotion of the issue. We have already had enough witch hunts in our nations history. Sex offenders seem to have become the new witches of the 21st century.
Even though violent criminals, those who injure and kill people, are more likely to re-offend than sex criminals, we only hang a long-term stigma on the sex offender. Why isn't there a national homicide registry? Why doesn't anyone seem to be concerned about living next door to an axe murderer? Some of those guys serve their sentences and get out of prison too.
Also, many simply throw all sex offenders into one big pile and say, "Light a match to all of 'em!" It doesn't seem to matter whether the offender pinched a girl's rear or raped children. Some are even on the list because they had consensual sex with a girl only a few years younger than them, but who was a minor. But they still get lumped into the pile. "He's a sex offender! Burn him! Burn him!!"
All I'm asking is for a little thought and reason to temper the anger.
Not every sex offender is a monster. Not every sex offender repeats his crimes. Many of them can be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation does reduce the number of repeat offenders. Other kinds of criminals, including the violent ones, are more likely to repeat their crimes than sex offenders.
Those are the facts.
When does a criminal's sentence end? The law has a range of punishments, and a jury trial has sentenced the criminal to his punishment. But it seems that many folks want the punishment of a sex offender to be eternal, right from the start.
Forget the jury trial. Forget the law. Forget rehabilitation. Forget repentance. Forget forgiveness. String up every last one of 'em.
I just want people to keep the whole thing in perspective. That's all.
I have worked with people who have been sexually abused . Its a heartbreaking thing. I have mainly dealt with incest cases. I have read many studies and I think you have some valid points. But I do believe we have a serious problem of reoffenders who just don't care if they are caught again. I really believe tossing them into general prison pop. would stop many of these guys from doing it again if they were raped etc as their victims. Sounds horrible right? But if they were given the same treatment as their victims were maybe I would believe they wouldn't reoffend. In one of my links if you read them it says.....Some predatory sociopaths can be deterred. None can be rehabilitated, since they cannot return to a state that never existed. The concept of coercive therapy is a contradiction; successful psychiatric treatment requires participants, not mere recipients. What makes sexual predators so intractable and dangerous is that, they like what they do and intend to keep doing it.
A 1992 study of 767 rapists and child molesters in Minnesota found those who completed psychiatric treatment were arrested more often for new sex crimes than those who had not been treated at all. A Canadian survey that tracked released child molesters for 20 years revealed a 43 percent recidivism rate regardless of the therapy. The difference between those simply incarcerated and those subjected to a full range of treatments appears statistically negligible. And the more violent and sadistic the offense, the more likely it is to be repeated.Another factor that thwarts rehabilitation is the need for offenders to seek higher and higher levels of stimulation. There is no observable waning of their desires over time: sexual predators do not outgrow their behavior. Thus, while most sadistic sex offenders are not first arrested for homicide, they may well try to murder someone in the future. Those too are facts if you don't want to believe them fine. I do think that low tier offenders who have been evaluated have less of a risk to offend. And yes there is a witch hunt on for sex offenders. However when you read the heinous crimes that repeat offenders do it does make one's blood boil. Or sentences like the Judge In Mass gave to a sex offender, 6 months in jail. People are scared and they are afraid for their children. Look at NAMBLA that group is damn scary. They promote sex with children. I would like to believe that sex offenders can go live normal lives but the fact is and many will tell you this is that the desire to reoffend is just too great. As the one link put it so well....Sexual predators are already narcissistic; they laugh behind their masks at our attempts to understand and rehabilitate them. We have earned their contempt by our belief that they can change—by our confusion of "crazy" with "dangerous," and "sick" with "sickening." Good luck with your studies and hopes of making people who are not normal in any sense of the word normal again. It isn't going to happen. Maybe someday doctors can find out just what causes these people to have the desire to rape and molest children and then they can reverse it. However I am not holding out much hope for that either. Instead I would rather see sex offenders who are higher risk kept behind bars where they can't offend again. If one child is saved by keeping them jailed its well worth it. Being molested is something that never leaves a child. Have you given thought to the victims and to what these offenses do to them? Try thinking of how their little lives are ruined for life why don't you?
I agree that it's horrible, and I have been face-to-face with the results of it as well. I was a police officer for a time, and I saw plenty.
Sex offenders frequently are put in the general population, and they get just the kind of brutal treatment you call for. I don't know if that causes lower repeat offenses or not.
What I do know is that many sex offenders were childhood victims of sexual abuse themselves. It's so common as to be nearly assumed. That history of sexual abuse does not excuse the crime, but it helps explain it. And it leads me to believe that further sexual abuse in prison probably won't change their behavior much.
In one of my links if you read them it says.....Some predatory sociopaths can be deterred. None can be rehabilitated, since they cannot return to a state that never existed.
I disagree with that statement. I completely reject the idea that a class of offender cannot be rehabilitated. If you talk about low success rates or great difficulty or the rarity of complete recovery, fine. But to categorically dismiss sex offenders as being incapable of change is just plain false.
The concept of coercive therapy is a contradiction; successful psychiatric treatment requires participants, not mere recipients. What makes sexual predators so intractable and dangerous is that, they like what they do and intend to keep doing it.
Again, you're painting with a very broad brush. There is a wide range of severity in sex crime. There is also a wide range of perversion among sex criminals. Some are absolute monsters, some are almost normal. Most are somewhere in between.
Your blanket assertion that "they like what they do and intend to keep doing it" certainly applies to some sex criminals. But there are many that it doesn't apply to. There are some who clearly recognize their danger to society and their lack of self-control, so they beg and plead to never be released from jail.
A 1992 study of 767 rapists and child molesters in Minnesota found those who completed psychiatric treatment were arrested more often for new sex crimes than those who had not been treated at all. A Canadian survey that tracked released child molesters for 20 years revealed a 43 percent recidivism rate regardless of the therapy. The difference between those simply incarcerated and those subjected to a full range of treatments appears statistically negligible.
Would you please post links to those studies? Forgive me for not just taking your word for it.
And a number of other studies--those that I posted were just a few of them--found different results. One of those that I posted was a "metastudy", where they combined the results of many other studies. That one found that most convicted sex offenders do not repeat their crimes.
Another factor that thwarts rehabilitation is the need for offenders to seek higher and higher levels of stimulation. There is no observable waning of their desires over time: sexual predators do not outgrow their behavior. Thus, while most sadistic sex offenders are not first arrested for homicide, they may well try to murder someone in the future. Those too are facts if you don't want to believe them fine.
I'm well aware of the nature of the sex offender and the need for increased stimulation. In fact, that need is a factor in nearly all crime, in one way or another. But those who go from sex crimes to homicide are small minority. And it's clearly wrong to treat all levels of sex offenders as though they're hunting for someone to mutilate. Should we also treat anyone arrested for a fistfight as though they're a potential serial killer? The fact is, most of them don't escalate into monsters.
And yes there is a witch hunt on for sex offenders. However when you read the heinous crimes that repeat offenders do it does make one's blood boil. Or sentences like the Judge In Mass gave to a sex offender, 6 months in jail. People are scared and they are afraid for their children. Look at NAMBLA that group is damn scary. They promote sex with children.
You're absolutely right that there are very dangerous, scary people out there. Those should be locked up for a long, long time or executed.
There are cases where judges give sentences that are too light.
There are groups that promote repulsive, vile and illegal activity.
That's all true. But it's not all of them. And there are plenty of other monsters who don't commit sex crimes and seem to get overshadowed by those who do, for some reason.
I would like to believe that sex offenders can go live normal lives but the fact is and many will tell you this is that the desire to reoffend is just too great. As the one link put it so well....Sexual predators are already narcissistic; they laugh behind their masks at our attempts to understand and rehabilitate them. We have earned their contempt by our belief that they can change—by our confusion of "crazy" with "dangerous," and "sick" with "sickening."
Still, you're grouping all sex offenders into one big pile. You splatter the blood and horror of the very worst of them over the entire group, giving them all up as dangerous lost causes. That's an understandable emotional response, but also completely unfair and dishonest.
It isn't going to happen.
It already does. You ignore, deny or dislike that fact all you want, but it's there anyway. Some of them do change and recover.
Instead I would rather see sex offenders who are higher risk kept behind bars where they can't offend again. If one child is saved by keeping them jailed its well worth it.
I agree with you. The challenge is figuring out which ones are higher risk. And even then, the courts can only sentence criminals within the bounds of the law.
Realistically, we can't lock up every sex offender forever; we simply don't have the jail space.
Being molested is something that never leaves a child. Have you given thought to the victims and to what these offenses do to them? Try thinking of how their little lives are ruined for life why don't you?
Ma'am, you have no idea what I've seen. I understand your anger, and I share it. I have children, and I have witnessed more than you might think.
But I've also seen what vigilantism can do. I've watched what mobs blinded by rage can do to completely innocent people. I see the beginnings of mob rage and vigilantism frequently surrounding the issue of sex offenders, and I'm only trying to get people to take the time to think and act carefully.
This is why we have jury trials and elected legislators. A frenzied mob will not act in a controlled way to dispense justice. Overzealous cops looking for bad guys to punish are already knocking down the wrong doors and sometimes shooting the wrong people.
Sex offenses absolutely ruin lives. It's a gasping-for-breath heartbreaking tragedy. But so is attending the funeral of your son because he was killed by people who mistook him for a monster.
Great description! Makes me want to go there right now...er, maybe not...LOL!
My son had to work in that area for awhile and told me how nasty it was. When I read the article I too wondered exactly where they were headed.
BTW, I bet Daddy is the attorney who let this guy camp in his cottage.
It sounds like you and I agree pretty well.
I hope that judge has trouble sleeping at night. ...for as long as that little girl lives.
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